Re: [dmarc-ietf] Forensic report loops are a problem

Dave Crocker <> Tue, 02 February 2021 01:23 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3A1473A1645 for <>; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 17:23:07 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.098
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vnktzBucNLcS for <>; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 17:23:05 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::335]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 213463A1641 for <>; Mon, 1 Feb 2021 17:23:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: by with SMTP id t25so8206908otc.5 for <>; Mon, 01 Feb 2021 17:23:04 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to:content-language; bh=wABgTUJoZksmgmZiF1R2ni6mZyP1NvrKZbymQ2vjWwg=; b=QJN7O6b741jcuNtzlYGUbEIy+ydanDDFnuJM4VSQKgg+D8yLP/YQjnUp7uxs5u7sZ+ 4jj+7W+IqJfTFlrVq4XG5qkpXoSainrSIt0yfqybzN1MGF99T8y/X8iBkatEfkKXY3+G +HtTSVQRrd/1wIgCOKlnOkdAhe0WViXDVfAQ8lOoIDSfIwjuetU2BOJvrYQkuxtKZl8P mect2EI8g00ivfO7K86Lkz93hRg6VNEg04JbI5OkVmIJ8nwu//ZwGBK2Vw7G6aWqxbH0 tqjplhiE+78/In2Ql7u4jnaD6qDNH7a0glsdmhDlFm8sGOh3n8uldTCq7m2KSC4yE294 ad5w==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language; bh=wABgTUJoZksmgmZiF1R2ni6mZyP1NvrKZbymQ2vjWwg=; b=O79wGcR71OElaC6p4crV9d1Z8jJaKB/U6pcY9Ad8yNqvAf/AiDHnghtgEd5DSVtGh0 //YsWS54sCh78mzqvlYEn33tpx+17mc98407LtueJDbtvxrEidOEMlVzkzLht5MGir82 dcTvWNCavJUw/H36IpXES6OzOIonWkdH1joGSToVlXCToCX9vB/y8Rpggn+Ztbl0DBEV cA/Vnr8kAiR3ghv6MAfdHuvl3ouowxOrfyHGtBWOi59kU34SALoXE7fhE9rGRaXEG9ww 1EpguP65GgveLNvio1rWjuecChzMFVgMiFVdNbXK6g5kXBoQoskZoMmrT45jpUM4W6TP f29Q==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533/i6vkaDFJty/+YnYUR36D8G2dQ23tSoGxoBwBAzaC7LaUo6li htDvynQ+69zfqkYKdxq9rZmr110jrRUGNA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyfE7rYrDCenRQucz6OCoEgTBUSUG6a28gsNPx5pr71ahBpFhmDqcSXgykcxBUpk+Jv97B3TA==
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:3604:: with SMTP id w4mr5144222otb.107.1612228984137; Mon, 01 Feb 2021 17:23:04 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [] ( []) by with ESMTPSA id g23sm4426242otk.72.2021. (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Feb 2021 17:23:03 -0800 (PST)
To: Michael Thomas <>,
References: <20210201232105.1931D6D20971@ary.qy> <> <> <> <> <> <>
From: Dave Crocker <>
Message-ID: <>
Date: Mon, 1 Feb 2021 17:23:00 -0800
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.7.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------733FA65986853C4086803379"
Content-Language: en-US
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] Forensic report loops are a problem
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting, and Compliance \(DMARC\)" <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Feb 2021 01:23:07 -0000

On 2/1/2021 4:41 PM, Michael Thomas wrote:
>> we're supposed to balance purported security considerations with 
>> pragmatic, real-world operational limits.
>> cost/benefit.  not an unusual concept.
> We have no means of evaluating what you're complaining about. It's a 
> Chimera, and a long tailed one at that. 

You're probably right.  Far better to offer requirements as absolutes, 
unanchored by practical concerns.

Except that cost/benefit isn't an illusion or fabrication, but is a 
common practice, so attempting to claim it is otherwise is gaslighting.

And gaslighting is a method that creates a hostile work environment.

It's a shame the working group management hasn't put serious effort into 
curbing such behavior.


Dave Crocker

Volunteer, Silicon Valley Chapter
American Red Cross