IETF Logo Mail Archive

Re: [dmarc-ietf] ARC questions

Brandon Long <blong@google.com> Mon, 23 November 2020 19:42 UTC

Return-Path: <blong@google.com>
X-Original-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 962893A0DB5 for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 11:42:38 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -15.699
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-15.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.001, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, ENV_AND_HDR_SPF_MATCH=-0.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_DEF_SPF_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kutVn1CGnHUB for <dmarc@ietfa.amsl.com>; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 11:42:36 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-vs1-xe32.google.com (mail-vs1-xe32.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::e32]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0ABF03A0DF6 for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 11:42:33 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-vs1-xe32.google.com with SMTP id x11so9775565vsx.12 for <dmarc@ietf.org>; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 11:42:32 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VwHpGvjBQxbjAc1v3bFlzo3iHu2j8G9m2zJvJKCpc7c=; b=daJBsQxbPEEtQ8g8Sx8zGYtm/jJ2CZDiqQFPn+8aKLGTcEyNNgw5nAZ1w6ZF4IR3Fu M5eZtO8UiXTEFoLXlfBw9b5/NYEneuGPtFXQUvNvCpyR6Teeyx9qB9Oq6mFBIWNDl8ab v6JQGkZM07DiCBQFyKmTH/hVcukkECAqy1sT5XkVeX3iSUJnemJNMaFoL+u4JC/be66A 8h+KmpUWazFZhe9NP01jhmIK0/z8o/K6mKPD8ZvBKON+UBgLjFx2Y2klvI/6YXnbVm3X zXYGmHfSU1VPBoztsV8ulsmopfrWjMqQL8hDQPAu5Qd28mTA4svoPY1J1dg5TpGF9wo/ IqJQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VwHpGvjBQxbjAc1v3bFlzo3iHu2j8G9m2zJvJKCpc7c=; b=V7lf4b+IR5tuETOAeq0LuFVxH9CP7EW/2bgkxokj8KIS83ccHBeYocSytytsaKEfDg PMRWa1dkYpoEuB5c73eucU5zldzPUtvHVoNconZyGojY2B/KQiD2qFyOZyL0PcYbG5es kvASg1tJWeMug/6boC15m3+RvhuQy3A5t6M2Ryu/RuUjWT1B0FcX5yllkdvvnUmAy9uX QLum6Ac+UYBD/YSx7geU4r7GntHaE0PtrTGYV9Zot3/C75i44SRGaIuhJ9poAcQb9PfJ 5jB0ThxQAPZOMJ9ESf+8NtY6O3kYztBf4vI+YXxG7O+nBnTuGZMA7UN1ElsOl7OIj37m lKYQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5302FxKYmSo/kbl2ec9fbwkjYsYlRb2zZwerc8DZSaMubBTSZ7GN A9NyGsZGAWomo4YFxDnrEy3O+7hB/TBX1/1WapUMgDNkww==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzGDyv9BCmK96EAXaJ7y5ac5gDa+SG1rOCDWmHC/K+5KJAzmiD3P3L8rIMwJUqRu5HedLn6X7L7R2K5cdvcFjk=
X-Received: by 2002:a67:df8b:: with SMTP id x11mr1389895vsk.37.1606160551872; Mon, 23 Nov 2020 11:42:31 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <dcc265f9-a143-5093-eba0-94ee059c7cc7@mtcc.com> <20201122021417.B5E6E27B3E59@ary.qy> <CABuGu1pX=5ZC4RLsv19qrosRN9nCrPdeSk5Xg4O7ViEZit6dnA@mail.gmail.com> <453c4db4-fc62-dc76-5b15-707623d66f9f@mtcc.com> <64f18b-ae8-8c15-3d33-ff2d864c35bc@taugh.com> <884541e6-5076-7f8f-d1d2-d68ea9c5a2bc@mtcc.com> <CABa8R6u_K=KEQv3vmkVwEuYon350NEkd62eOovhq+gv9wonSnA@mail.gmail.com> <f28b76e5-2855-985e-ece5-960aa68e2846@dcrocker.net>
In-Reply-To: <f28b76e5-2855-985e-ece5-960aa68e2846@dcrocker.net>
From: Brandon Long <blong@google.com>
Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 11:42:19 -0800
Message-ID: <CABa8R6s+CoKv69g+Csu83e+vMac83rm85cFJXE09_H6TiYJB6Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Dave Crocker <dcrocker@bbiw.net>
Cc: Michael Thomas <mike@mtcc.com>, "dmarc@ietf.org" <dmarc@ietf.org>, "Kurt Andersen (b)" <kboth@drkurt.com>, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000002601f605b4cb6560"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dmarc/qFHKUl-sBDOqOA1GCfuofdiAaFI>
Subject: Re: [dmarc-ietf] ARC questions
X-BeenThere: dmarc@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "Domain-based Message Authentication, Reporting, and Compliance \(DMARC\)" <dmarc.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dmarc/>
List-Post: <mailto:dmarc@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dmarc>, <mailto:dmarc-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Nov 2020 19:42:45 -0000

On Mon, Nov 23, 2020 at 11:34 AM Dave Crocker <dhc@dcrocker.net> wrote:

> On 11/23/2020 11:29 AM, Brandon Long wrote:
> > The DKIM-Signature is an "ownership" thing, it's a message originator
> > that is saying
> > "associate this message to me".
>
> That is not DKIM's semantics:
>
>     "DomainKeys Identified Mail (DKIM) permits a person, role, or
>     organization to claim some responsibility for a message by
>     associating a domain name"
>
> This says nothing about whether the organization has anything to do with
> origination.
>
> There is nothing to prohibit or preclude handling agents other than the
> originator from signing.
>

Yes, of course, a handling agent can do it, but there are plenty of reasons
why they shouldn't.


> > Intermediaries don't want to take ownership of the message in that
> > sense, though there
> > are some mailing lists that do.
>
> Signing with DKIM does not take 'ownership'.
>

Yes, responsibility is the proper word.  My point survives the word change.

DKIM says the domain takes responsibility for the message, while ARC says
the domain takes responsibility for evaluating the status of the message
when
they received and forwarded it.

Brandon

v2.23.0 | Report a Bug | By Email