Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic encryption draft
Peter van Dijk <peter.van.dijk@powerdns.com> Wed, 18 November 2020 20:36 UTC
Return-Path: <peter.van.dijk@powerdns.com>
X-Original-To: dns-privacy@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dns-privacy@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1908D3A0C37 for <dns-privacy@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:36:20 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.621
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.621 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_HELO_FCRDNS=0.276, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sJoCKueqNeU5 for <dns-privacy@ietfa.amsl.com>; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:36:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mx3.open-xchange.com (alcatraz.open-xchange.com [87.191.39.187]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 596503A0C36 for <dprive@ietf.org>; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 12:36:18 -0800 (PST)
Received: from open-xchange.com (imap.open-xchange.com [10.20.30.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx3.open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 528D86A256; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:36:15 +0100 (CET)
Received: from plato (84-81-54-175.fixed.kpn.net [84.81.54.175]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by open-xchange.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 322913C002F; Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:36:15 +0100 (CET)
Message-ID: <c67c3aee78873ec90b8a7a0debf949d6dd9b1d5c.camel@powerdns.com>
From: Peter van Dijk <peter.van.dijk@powerdns.com>
To: "dprive@ietf.org" <dprive@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 21:36:14 +0100
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LRH.2.23.451.2011181009120.3144547@bofh.nohats.ca>
References: <C0CBEBC5-D28A-46C0-AE50-078710015466@icann.org> <alpine.LRH.2.23.451.2010301202350.2587497@bofh.nohats.ca> <2444B21B-9465-4A5B-97CC-AF809309300A@icann.org> <CABcZeBPZFY9aQ5Nb0q_4uTMFRbY3-S2rus4vaeLaUmvU+h_ftg@mail.gmail.com> <2D07CBD0-30CE-418E-AD05-02E0A5EDB79F@icann.org> <CABcZeBNdNnyjzk0mOtfix=OvVTEpPzegEw_V5QfKvYtkFV+zOw@mail.gmail.com> <CAH1iCirz27EoahrYE8z9AV=Cf=A-i=iPP1deOYPWO8_k1mL+XA@mail.gmail.com> <27ddd3bde1ea11c857a96346b6f4ba5aa8b1d92f.camel@powerdns.com> <CAH1iCipYL6fujSLur6OsoPq3ACv-uOFGFOzks0oij-97gTfp6A@mail.gmail.com> <d8d1613f65f180f1495559114b55a2f06e7de08f.camel@powerdns.com> <CAH1iCirx+QUOXico8vpJKos_jsSkVs-0v3SQqWNtGxv3P14wYQ@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LRH.2.23.451.2011181009120.3144547@bofh.nohats.ca>
Organization: PowerDNS.COM B.V.
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
User-Agent: Evolution 3.30.5-1.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dns-privacy/yY9PfUqQIIdGNjcLDnlQ810OIbw>
Subject: Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic encryption draft
X-BeenThere: dns-privacy@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: <dns-privacy.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dns-privacy>, <mailto:dns-privacy-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dns-privacy/>
List-Post: <mailto:dns-privacy@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dns-privacy-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dns-privacy>, <mailto:dns-privacy-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2020 20:36:20 -0000
On Wed, 2020-11-18 at 10:14 -0500, Paul Wouters wrote: > On Mon, 16 Nov 2020, Brian Dickson wrote: > > > Yes, this is a huge gap in the fundamentals for any privacy architecture (ADoT), which is rooted in the unsigned nature of > > NS records regardless of the security state of a delegation (DNSSEC or not). > > The IP connection to (small) nameservers will always leak information, > even if perfectly encrypted and obtained without privacy. Just by > connecting to say ns1.nohats.ca, any observer knows you are connecting > to either "nohats.ca" or "libreswan.org". But not what subdomain, if any, of those you are visiting. I do recognise that this is on the long tail of things we can try to protect. > The only way out of that is a distributed decentralized DNS cache. I always imagined that, given DNSSEC, we could bittorrent our way out of this. Then later people imagined we could blockchain our way out of this - but it hasn't happened yet. > > Downgrade resistant only if the delegation information is protected (NS names in particular). > > Protecting the delegation NS records against an on-path adversary (between resolver and TLD) does not have any nice > > solutions. > > This is basically the same problem as ESNI. Except ESNI fixed it by > pulling information from (encrypted) DNS :) That's "protecting the NS records against snooping", if I understand you correctly. The other problem is protecting the delegation NS records against meddling, for which various partial solutions have been provided but we have zero standardised today. Kind regards, -- Peter van Dijk PowerDNS.COM BV - https://www.powerdns.com/
- [dns-privacy] Revised opportunistic encryption dr… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dns-privacy] Revised opportunistic encryptio… Paul Wouters
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dns-privacy] Revised opportunistic encryptio… John Levine
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… John R Levine
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Hollenbeck, Scott
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Brian Dickson
- Re: [dns-privacy] Revised opportunistic encryptio… Tony Finch
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Tony Finch
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Brian Dickson
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Brian Dickson
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Tony Finch
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Paul Wouters
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Paul Wouters
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Tony Finch
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Brian Dickson
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Tony Finch
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Peter van Dijk
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Tony Finch
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Shumon Huque
- Re: [dns-privacy] [Ext] Revised opportunistic enc… Brian Dickson