Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04
Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com> Thu, 25 November 2010 14:55 UTC
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Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 09:56:43 -0500
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@shinkuro.com>
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References: <20101117091928.GA30093@nic.fr> <4CE9E942.20906@dougbarton.us> <0E561274-43FE-4657-951E-74C8FF0FD307@hopcount.ca> <4CEC43DC.1060709@dougbarton.us> <E7796748-6880-4928-B96D-0024E27E98D5@hopcount.ca> <4CEC69C5.3040209@dougbarton.us> <7B9EF625-1E25-42BE-9546-61C5B7EFC6DA@hopcount.ca> <8CEF048B9EC83748B1517DC64EA130FB43E0037FD1@off-win2003-01.ausregistrygroup.local> <20101124142303.GB19441@shinkuro.com> <4CED5DF3.2030106@dougbarton.us>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04
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On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 10:48:19AM -0800, Doug Barton wrote: >> IETF is supposed to be about interoperability, and if stuff breaks >> because we have decided, "We don't care lalalalalala I can't hear >> you there isn't a problem," then we ought to be ashamed of ourselves. > > I am rather specifically NOT claiming that there is no problem, and your > attempt here to paint me (and others who agree with this view) as > childish/foolish is a borderline ad hominem attack. You have claimed that there is not a technical problem here, but "merely" a policy one. I am arguing that, given that some people apparently read 1123 differently than you do, we have a technical problem in the narrowest meaning of that term, and that we therefore ought to address it. Also, if you're going to start throwing around complaints about fallacies, you'll want to describe them correctly. If you really think I'm misdescribing your position, it's not an _ad hominem_ anyway. It's a straw person. Moreover, while we're talking about fallacies . . . > I will once again point out that if your criteria is "We can never > deploy anything new in DNS because something in the installed base will > break" then the issue with this draft is moot. We simply will not do > IDNs at all, and therefore there is no need for the draft to clarify > anything. Oh and btw, are you going to notify Jari and Ralph that we're > closing down dnsext, or would you like me to do it? . . . this is just a slippery slope argument, and not a very good one. Engineering decisions involve trade-offs. It is quite correct that there may well be deployed software that will break when exposed to on-the-wire DNS top-level labels that don't strictly conform to the RFC 1123 "alphabetic" description. That doesn't mean that we don't deploy such labels: it means we have to make a decision about whether the feature is worth the potential cost. I think it is, and I also think that the right thing to do is to specify exactly what we are changing and how so that, if something breaks, people have something they can read in order to understand what is going on. Moreover, the class of applications that might be using the heuristic about the top-level labels extends far beyond just those things actually talking to the DNS. It's actually that class of software I am most concerned about. That's what makes me think it is worth specifying first the smallest variation from historical practice that we can specify while still permitting the new use. > I've already lodged this objection more than once, but since you have > repeated your side again, I'll do the same. We do not have a protocol > restriction now, and your attempt to assert one in a "clarify" draft is > at best, bogus. Well, I'm not attempting anything: I didn't write the draft. But I think the draft tries to say that the 1123 language may be interpreted (by some) as entailing a restriction, not that there is in fact such a restriction: Some implementers may have understood the above phrase 'will be alphabetic' to be a protocol restriction. It seems to me that if you want to make clearer that the text of 1123 ought not to be so interpreted, you could send text to that effect. A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@shinkuro.com Shinkuro, Inc.
- [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Mans Nilsson
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 ]ke Nordin
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Richard Clayton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Stephane Bortzmeyer
- [DNSOP] Writing rules for French (Was: draft-lima… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 James Mitchell
- Re: [DNSOP] Writing rules for French (Was: draft-… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] Writing rules for French (Was: draft-… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] Writing rules for French (Was: draft-… Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- [DNSOP] clue w.r.t. arabic (was: Re: draft-liman-… Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] clue w.r.t. arabic Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] clue w.r.t. arabic Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] clue w.r.t. arabic Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] clue w.r.t. arabic Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] clue w.r.t. arabic Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 James Mitchell
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Alfred Hönes
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Richard Clayton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Jaap Akkerhuis
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Suzanne Woolf
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 James Mitchell
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Chris Wright
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Andreas Gustafsson
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Masataka Ohta
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] draft-liman-tld-names-04 Mark Andrews