Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator
Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com> Mon, 25 March 2019 08:28 UTC
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From: Ian Swett <ianswett@google.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 04:28:21 -0400
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To: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Cc: Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>, "doh@ietf.org" <doh@ietf.org>, "wjhns1@hardakers.net" <wjhns1@hardakers.net>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "Winfield, Alister" <Alister.Winfield=40sky.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>, "huitema@huitema.net" <huitema@huitema.net>, "vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator
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One way DoH may be faster than DoT in the near future is that DoH can go over HTTP/3 via QUIC and avoid head of line blocking like Do53. On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 4:15 AM Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 8:52 AM Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com> > wrote: > >> I'm not pushing against DoT per se in this thread, I am pushing against >> the notion that a client has an obligation to the network to provide a >> clear channel for traffic analysis and downgrade triggers. >> >> fwiw - there are lots of reasons an http client is going to be interested >> in an http substrate beyond just traffic analysis defense. It has the >> potential for better overall application responsiveness - by sharing >> connections and handshakes with other http data. I don't think that >> particular discussion is important to this thread. >> > > Actually, it really is. > > At a minimum it needs to be treated as an assertion that is subject to > validation or refutation. > > This is a refutation: > > The DoH operators who have made public statements (google and cloudflare > are two I am aware of), have specifically indicated that NO OTHER HTTPS > TRAFFIC will be shared on the IPv{46} addresses serving Do{HT}. > > So, the handshakes and sharing argument is specious at best, and bogus at > worst. > > The ONLY difference in browsers doing DoH vs DoT, under the hood, is that > DoT does not require the encoding/decoding of the DNS messages (plus all > the other HTTP overhead). > Both DoT and DoH require DNS messages in wire format be constructed first, > and after whatever decoding, wire format responses processed by the client. > > A cursory analysis of the logic -- extra encoding vs no extra encoding -- > essentially proves by "the triangle inequality"* that DoH cannot be faster > than DoT when comparing same-client to same-server. > > Brian > > *(the sum of lengths of two sides is greater or equal to the length of the > third side) In this case two sides are the same length (processing of TLS > and DNS) and the other side is extra processing of HTTP encoding, headers, > etc., and the sum is (HTTP + common path) , compared with (common path). > HTTP is not a zero-cost flow, so HTTP + x > x. QED. > > > >> >> On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 6:35 AM Brian Dickson < >> brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 24, 2019, at 10:42 PM, Patrick McManus <mcmanus@ducksong.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 10:31 PM Brian Dickson < >>> brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> This is important for network operators in identifying encrypted DNS >>>> traffic, >>>> >>> >>> not all clients acknowledge a network's right to do such things at all >>> times. And of course it would be useful to tell the difference between >>> policy and a RST injection attack. >>> >>> If the client does acknowledge the network has the right to set policy - >>> then the policy can be set on the client using existing configuration >>> mechanisms that allow the client to differentiate between authorized >>> configuration and perhaps less-authorized folks identifying their DNS >>> traffic. This is well worn ground in the HTTP space. >>> >>> >>> What I find interesting, is that as far as I can tell, everything you >>> wrote applies equally to DoH and DoT, if the transport is the only >>> difference. E.g. Same client browser, same DNS service, accessed via DoH or >>> DoT. >>> >>> Are you suggesting (or claiming) otherwise, and if so, please elaborate? >>> >>> Brian >>> >> _______________________________________________ > Doh mailing list > Doh@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh >
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Warren Kumari
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ask Bjørn Hansen
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator John Todd
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Adam Roach
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator 神明達哉
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Wes Hardaker
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eric Rescorla
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ray Bellis
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator sthaug
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] (dhc discovery) New I-D: draft-… Normen B. Kowalewski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Bill Woodcock
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Livingood, Jason
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Puneet Sood
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Richard Bennett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Richard Bennett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Wes Hardaker
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Olli Vanhoja
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ian Swett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… sthaug
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Valentin Gosu
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ray Bellis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ray Bellis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Puneet Sood
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… tirumal reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… tirumal reddy