Re: [DNSOP] RDBD draft updated

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Thu, 10 October 2019 10:29 UTC

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To: Martin Thomson <mt@lowentropy.net>, dnsop@ietf.org
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From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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Date: Thu, 10 Oct 2019 09:03:44 +0100
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] RDBD draft updated
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Hiya,

On 10/10/2019 03:52, Martin Thomson wrote:
> There's an interesting (web-only) effort looking at a similar
> problem: https://github.com/krgovind/first-party-sets  There, the
> goal is to establish commonality for the purposes of sharing state
> (and fate).

Yes, I saw that recently. I agree there's a partial overlap
in goals.

> A great counter-example in that case is the relationship between
> github.com and github.io, which are administratively the same, but
> purposefully distinct from the perspective of web state.

Sure.

> 
> All this makes me wonder what your intent is with respect to
> semantics.

My goal is to define a mechanism with minimal semantics but
that is extensible. (To be open about why - I think efforts in
this space have partly foundered because they've started out
too ambitious, so I figure a more modest starting point may
work out better.)

> o  0: states that no relationship exists between the domains
> 
> o  1: states that some relationship exists between the domains
> 
> That's incredibly vague.

Nope, it's minimal:-)

Again, that is intentional.

To take the web example you started with, if someone wanted to
use RDBD as a part of that, then I guess it'd mean defining a
new rdbd-tag value (call it "W") and its related semantics, e.g.
if an RDBD RR with a tag W is published at example.com saying
that example.net is related, that might mean that a TLS server
cert ought exist that covers both at once before a client would
be willing to consider shared state for those names (or whatever
else is required to implement the web semantics for W).

The definition of W is envisaged to be in some other spec, with
whatever IANA registry rules would be adopted for rdbd-tag code
points. (Parts of that 16 bit space could be FCFS too of course
but I'd guess spec required might be most useful.)

> If you consider the possibility of there being richer expressions of
> semantics, this starts to look a bit like link relations at the DNS
> layer: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8288

I think the better approach, if expressing relationships in DNS,
is likely to be to encode those down to rdbd-tags or similar. At
least, that's the approach we're espousing here.

Cheers,
S.

> 
> On Tue, Oct 1, 2019, at 07:17, Stephen Farrell wrote:
>> 
>> Hi all,
>> 
>> As per discussion at IETF 105, Alex and I did some more work on the
>> RDBD draft (lots of text edits and a bit of prototyping) and have
>> posted a new version. [1]
>> 
>> We'd be very interested in folks' opinions.
>> 
>> Thanks, Stephen & Alex.
>> 
>> [1] https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-brotman-rdbd-03
>> 
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