Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu> Thu, 04 April 2019 14:01 UTC
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References: <1700920918.12557.1552229700654@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <76386691-c1aa-c48a-9b0d-67eb36a08a4f@redbarn.org> <CABcZeBOWM0Ps-j3V-CK6VPy0LAqeo7-t7odUZy+dk9d-oCSDsg@mail.gmail.com> <4935758.NkxX2Kjbm0@linux-9daj> <c2c2be47-0855-a9d1-dd53-2404edf4d02b@huitema.net> <807193999.19916.1552445819087@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <9e40ac38-fa10-bbdc-1bfc-302e0ca170df@huitema.net> <ed7c2f6c-8664-5a75-7a8f-d19bce7c0b15@redbarn.org> <CAPt1N1ngNniMNvHJSmhDkbgTEXRhYY7+=pixA4o7i4No1tBWog@mail.gmail.com>
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From: Bob Harold <rharolde@umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 04 Apr 2019 10:01:21 -0400
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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola@open-xchange.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, IETF DNSOP WG <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
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On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 6:34 PM Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote: > Paul, it might be worth asking whether you believe that isps should be > selling eyeballs. If you think they should, then your argument makes sense. > It’s the same argument isps give for charging me for service and then > charging Netflix for access to me. > > If you don’t agree with this model, then your argument that whoever built > the network has the right to dictate terms is inconsistent. > If you buy service from a network that subsidizes the price of your connection by selling your data, that is your choice. You could use a VPN or buy a network service (even a dedicated line) for a higher price that does not sell your data. Their network, their rules, but you choose the network. -- Bob Harold > On Wed, Apr 3, 2019 at 15:26 Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote: > >> i had to think about this for quite a long time. i've trimmed the cc >> headers. >> >> Christian Huitema wrote on 2019-03-12 20:39: >> > >> > On 3/12/2019 7:56 PM, Vittorio Bertola wrote: >> >> ... >> > >> > The mirror image of that statement is, "when did intermediaries get >> > a mandate to filter content?" >> >> it was rarely a mandate, though various governments have made it one for >> various intermediaries. let me answer a different question, when did >> intermediaries gain the right or responsibility or both for filtering >> content? because that answer is simple: when they started building and >> operating it, investing in it, and either profiting or losing from it. >> >> their networks, their rules. which is only potentially unfair when they >> are also monopolies, in which case their end systems and edge networks >> have no alternatives. the law may want to recognize when a monopoly >> exists and set some minimums and maximums on intermediary operator >> rights and responsibilities. but that's not an architecture question. >> >> > ... The internet architecture assumes full connectivity. At some >> > point, people deployed middle-boxes and filtered content because >> > they could. >> >> as seems natural, since the internet architecture is neither viral nor >> communist, and anyone who connects a network to that network-of-networks >> called "the internet" has always treated all policy as local, since all >> responsibility for its emissions and uptime was theirs and only theirs. >> >> > They did not exactly try to get a mandate, or obtain consensus that >> > this was proper. >> >> no consensus was needed. if someone broke your rules, you stopped them >> or disconnected them. that was true for the NSFnet AUP, and it's true of >> every network's AUP today, and every corporate or family network's policy. >> >> > Technologies like DoH force the discussion in the open. Why do you >> > think you can filter content? Who made you king? >> >> i think that's hyperbole. i am at best a prince, and only of the >> territory i personally pay to build and connect, and only in the eyes of >> people who use my network. anyone who dislikes my rules can search for >> some other internet-connected network whose rules they like better. this >> is not a dictatorship, but certainly is a coalition of the willing. >> >> -- >> P Vixie >> >
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [dns-privacy] [Doh] Ne… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [EXTERNAL] [Doh] New: d… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [EXTERNAL] [Doh] New: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Yishai Beeri (yishaib)
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Yishai Beeri (yishaib)
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Haberman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Adam Roach
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Bob Harold
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… william manning
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Watson Ladd
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie