Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List
Andrew Sullivan <ajs@commandprompt.com> Mon, 09 June 2008 21:42 UTC
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Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 17:42:16 -0400
From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@commandprompt.com>
To: dnsop@ietf.org
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References: <484CFF47.1050106@mozilla.org> <20080609142926.GC83012@commandprompt.com> <484D4191.104@mozilla.org> <20080609154002.GA93967@commandprompt.com> <484D5206.3000806@mozilla.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List
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On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 04:53:42PM +0100, Gervase Markham wrote: > > What you're really > > trying to do here is extract meaning from the domain name, but you > > can't do that reliably. Previous efforts in that direction have > > failed in unexpected ways; and given that you seem to have multiple > > ways you want to use this feature, I don't see any reason to believe > > you won't have surprising failures too. > > I think your statements of doom need to be more specific. I think you may be misplacing the burden of proof there. We have previous cases where apparently innocent inference of this sort of metadata about domains turned out to be harmful. I'm arguing, by way of analogy, that it is not unreasonable to suppose your approach may cause harm too. Your response appears to be that you won't cause that kind of harm. I'm sure that's true. But my argument is that, because you are relying on meanings that simply aren't in the DNS at all, your feature is automatically fragile. It will behave in ways that are surprising, because the behaviour of cookies (and, for that matter, of grouping of history stuff) will be based on hard-coded bits inaccessible to any user unwilling to read the source code. Also, new operators oFrom dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Mon Jun 9 14:42:03 2008 Return-Path: <dnsop-bounces@ietf.org> X-Original-To: dnsop-archive@lists.ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-dnsop-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F3D3A689A; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:42:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: dnsop@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: dnsop@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A40073A689A for <dnsop@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:42:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.549 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.549 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.186, BAYES_00=-2.599, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mnCfpLsI+RdB for <dnsop@core3.amsl.com>; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from lists.commandprompt.com (host-159.commandprompt.net [207.173.203.159]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8C603A67AD for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:42:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from commandprompt.com (227-54-222-209.mycybernet.net [209.222.54.227]) (authenticated bits=0) by lists.commandprompt.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id m59Lhq4g006299 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Mon, 9 Jun 2008 14:43:56 -0700 Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 17:42:16 -0400 From: Andrew Sullivan <ajs@commandprompt.com> To: dnsop@ietf.org Message-ID: <20080609214215.GF10260@commandprompt.com> References: <484CFF47.1050106@mozilla.org> <20080609142926.GC83012@commandprompt.com> <484D4191.104@mozilla.org> <20080609154002.GA93967@commandprompt.com> <484D5206.3000806@mozilla.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <484D5206.3000806@mozilla.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.17 (2007-11-01) X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.0 (lists.commandprompt.com [207.173.203.159]); Mon, 09 Jun 2008 14:43:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list <dnsop.ietf.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop>, <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://www.ietf.org/pipermail/dnsop> List-Post: <mailto:dnsop@ietf.org> List-Help: <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop>, <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: dnsop-bounces@ietf.org On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 04:53:42PM +0100, Gervase Markham wrote: > > What you're really > > trying to do here is extract meaning from the domain name, but you > > can't do that reliably. Previous efforts in that direction have > > failed in unexpected ways; and given that you seem to have multiple > > ways you want to use this feature, I don't see any reason to believe > > you won't have surprising failures too. > > I think your statements of doom need to be more specific. I think you may be misplacing the burden of proof there. We have previous cases where apparently innocent inference of this sort of metadata about domains turned out to be harmful. I'm arguing, by way of analogy, that it is not unreasonable to suppose your approach may cause harm too. Your response appears to be that you won't cause that kind of harm. I'm sure that's true. But my argument is that, because you are relying on meanings that simply aren't in the DNS at all, your feature is automatically fragile. It will behave in ways that are surprising, because the behaviour of cookies (and, for that matter, of grouping of history stuff) will be based on hard-coded bits inaccessible to any user unwilling to read the source code. Also, new operators of f various domains that may want to behave differently than your current expectation will be disadvantaged by what you're doing. Without getting every current user in the world to upgrade their client, they will continue to suffer that disadvantage to some extent. That seems like a kind of "harm" to me, but I appreciate that we may have different meanings of that word. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@commandprompt.com +1 503 667 4564 x104 http://www.commandprompt.com/ _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop various domains that may want to behave differently than your current expectation will be disadvantaged by what you're doing. Without getting every current user in the world to upgrade their client, they will continue to suffer that disadvantage to some extent. That seems like a kind of "harm" to me, but I appreciate that we may have different meanings of that word. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs@commandprompt.com +1 503 667 4564 x104 http://www.commandprompt.com/ _______________________________________________ DNSOP mailing list DNSOP@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
- [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jeroen Massar
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Antoin Verschuren
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List bert hubert
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Antoin Verschuren
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Elmar K. Bins
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Edward Lewis
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List bert hubert
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List bert hubert
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Patrik Fältström
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Yngve Nysaeter Pettersen
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Wes Hardaker
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Edward Lewis
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Yngve Nysaeter Pettersen
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Peter Koch
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Eric Brunner-Williams
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Kim Davies
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Phil Regnauld
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Andrew Sullivan
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jeroen Massar
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Adrien de Croy
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Wes Hardaker
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Dean Anderson
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Paul Hoffman
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Doug Barton
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Mark Foster
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Mark Foster
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jelte Jansen
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Henrik Nordstrom
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jeroen Massar
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jeroen Massar
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Joe Baptista
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Mark Nottingham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Edward Lewis
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Jamie Lokier
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… bmanning
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Joe Baptista
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Joe Baptista
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List David Conrad
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Florian Weimer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List SM
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Dean Anderson
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Antoin Verschuren
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Antoin Verschuren
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List - Please move disc… Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Gervase Markham
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Niall O'Reilly
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Yngve Nysaeter Pettersen
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Yngve Nysaeter Pettersen
- Re: [DNSOP] Public Suffix List Brian Dickson