Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-05.txt

George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> Tue, 13 September 2016 01:38 UTC

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From: George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org>
Date: Tue, 13 Sep 2016 11:38:03 +1000
Message-ID: <CAKr6gn0QupXOshyDH6qfmh4TLSmAFjfkVKDN3+jtmx38LEWy=A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-05.txt
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If you wish to make it attractive, the meeting point is probably not-dns

because alt is .. too desireable by others with different intent, in
the real world.

(I didn't mean >not-dns<)

the advantage of the unicode choice, was purely that it avoided
semantic meaning and was unlikely to be chosen. But I did also hope,
that it would terminate in DNS of older code. A useful side-effect.

G

On Tue, Sep 13, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 8:27 PM, George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org> wrote:
>> Alt being semantically overloaded in times past, contextually even in
>> domain names (Usenet, the great renaming)  It seems highly unwise to
>> ignore that historic understanding that people thought it meant the
>> same thing as "burning man"
>>
>> The string >not-dns< has two useful properties: its not currently
>> semantically loaded, and its meaning is unambiguous.
>>
>> It has a third useful property: Its ugly.
>>
>> Personally, I favour use of the unicode U+FFFD � REPLACEMENT CHARACTER
>
>
> This (and your third property) is where we disagree -- there is
> nothing that we can do to prevent people from simply squatting on
> names. We are not the namespace police. This means that whatever we
> select needs to be as attractive as possible if we want any hope of
> people using it. Making it ugly, or impossible to type, or in any
> other way implying that other resolution systems are second-class
> citizens simply means that people won't use it, and will just squat on
> whatever they choose.
>
> I'm assuming you were actually meaning "not-dns" and not ">not-dns<"
> -- if you were actually proposing the latter, we have a larger gulf --
> the names need to be useable anywhere current domain type names are -
> this includes things like browsers, but also includes other apps, like
> SSH, FTP, etc.
>
> foo.alt (and foo.not-dns) both are accepted by OpenSSH (as an example):
> ssh: Could not resolve hostname foo.atl: Name or service not known
> wkumari@ron:~/tmp$ ssh foo.not-dns
> ssh: Could not resolve hostname foo.not-dns: Name or service not known
>
> foo.>not-dns< (obviously enough) isn't:
> wkumari@ron:~/tmp$ ssh foo.>not-dns<
> -bash: syntax error near unexpected token `newline'
> wkumari@ron:~/tmp$
>
> If we don't provide people an (acceptable) alternative, and at least
> try and meet their needs, we lose any sort of right to shake a finger
> and say "Bad dog!" when they widdle on the namespace...
>
>
> -W
>
>
>> -G
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 12, 2016 at 9:57 PM,  <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>>> This draft is a work item of the Domain Name System Operations of the IETF.
>>>
>>>         Title           : The ALT Special Use Top Level Domain
>>>         Authors         : Warren Kumari
>>>                           Andrew Sullivan
>>>         Filename        : draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-05.txt
>>>         Pages           : 10
>>>         Date            : 2016-09-12
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>>    This document reserves a string (ALT) to be used as a TLD label in
>>>    non-DNS contexts or for names that have no meaning in a global
>>>    context.  It also provides advice and guidance to developers
>>>    developing alternate namespaces.
>>>
>>>    [ Ed note: This document lives in GitHub at:
>>>    https://github.com/wkumari/draft-wkumari-dnsop-alt-tld . Issues and
>>>    pull requests happily accepted. ]
>>>
>>>    [ Question for Working Group.  It has been proposed that the string
>>>    .ALT should be replaced with something else e.g. .NOT-DNS.  As naming
>>>    discussions in the IETF are always short, simple, and not
>>>    controversial, we figured we should open these for discussion now.
>>>    We would appreciate clear feedback on preference and rationale. ]
>>>
>>>
>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld/
>>>
>>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-05
>>>
>>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-05
>>>
>>>
>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
>>> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> DNSOP mailing list
>>> DNSOP@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop
>
>
>
> --
> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad
> idea in the first place.
> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later expressing
> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair
> of pants.
>    ---maf