Re: [DNSOP] DNSOP Call for Adoption - draft-west-let-localhost-be-localhost

Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> Fri, 08 September 2017 02:28 UTC

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To: Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>
Cc: dnsop WG <dnsop@ietf.org>, Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, Tim Wicinski <tjw.ietf@gmail.com>
From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <CADyWQ+EZQY9i5-4Ce-NZykwC+sS6iY868Wg0crW6KAZTGQxFQg@mail.gmail.com> <24CD1C88-58C5-4D6C-9F00-E3A2CD8C657C@fugue.com> <CADyWQ+Ex23QVef3AegWB4Jgd-sjG-G4z7XmXL9guN8PeWtsssw@mail.gmail.com> <93C3A47F-07C4-443F-AB87-B5C29F6B6774@fugue.com> <CAHw9_iKBDY9hNThOY3GDeG7BbCkc8Ncy1T=rjpcQ=h5qdB7=UQ@mail.gmail.com> <20170907041659.ED0BB8482BFF@rock.dv.isc.org> <CAPt1N1kXeF0zj_VHuv00taZ+39hR6Nw19uZ5rdxJr3aUeS5RvQ@mail.gmail.com> <20170907045934.C194B848328B@rock.dv.isc.org> <BFAECDAF-8F4B-4C8D-AB7E-1615BD54EF93@fugue.com> <20170908000559.DDBD7849CFAC@rock.dv.isc.org> <CAPt1N1kKNRU+mF-JVti_CKS25+7g5BFH8Yko53-VKgZqVreZuQ@mail.gmail.com>
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 07 Sep 2017 22:17:42 -0400." <CAPt1N1kKNRU+mF-JVti_CKS25+7g5BFH8Yko53-VKgZqVreZuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Sep 2017 12:27:47 +1000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/doszRMqxOGEdJGndRM9vKqWFMkY>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] DNSOP Call for Adoption - draft-west-let-localhost-be-localhost
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In message <CAPt1N1kKNRU+mF-JVti_CKS25+7g5BFH8Yko53-VKgZqVreZuQ@mail.gmail.com>
, Ted Lemon writes:
> The discussion had covered the failure mode problem. There is substantial
> agreement that it's better for a stub that issues a query for localhost to
> fail than to succeed. You seem to disagree.

There are lots of people that don't want to deal with ICANN politics
and that is clouding their technical judgements.

> You haven't stated a reason for disagreeing—instead you've vigorously
> asserted that this is true. It's fine for you to do this, but if you were
> to get your way, that would be exactly the bad outcome I want to avoid.

So you want to break EVERY protocol that uses SRV to localhost.  I
stated clearly that there is stuff that you can do with DNS that
you can't do with /etc/hosts, NIS, etc.  One shouldn't have to
itemise everything that will be broken because full functionality
is not being provided.

> So if there really is a problem here, it would be good for you to make it
> clear. Your stated desire to preserve flexibility makes sense to me, but it
> doesn't contradict the reason already given for *not *providing that
> flexibility.
> 
> Is there some *other* reason why this is important to you, or is that it?
> 
> On Sep 7, 2017 8:06 PM, "Mark Andrews" <marka@isc.org> wrote:
> 
> >
> > In message <BFAECDAF-8F4B-4C8D-AB7E-1615BD54EF93@fugue.com>om>, Ted Lemon
> > writes:
> > >
> > > On Sep 7, 2017, at 12:59 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
> > > > I shouldn't BE FORCED to hard code special LOCALHOST rules into DNS
> > > > tools.  Lookups should "just work" like they did before the root
> > > > zone was signed.
> > >
> > > Because...?
> >
> > Because there are things you can do with localhost as a DNS zone
> > that you can't do with /etc/hosts, NIS, etc. as they are limited
> > to addresses only.
> >
> > Localhost should work just like home.arpa.  The tools we use shouldn't
> > need special knowledge.  Special knowledge means EVERYTHING needs
> > to be tested to see if it works with localhost as well and regular
> > names.  That testing will get missed.  If it doesn't get missed it
> > costs more money.  Workarounds for different behavior increases the
> > probability of bugs being introduced as there will be seperate code
> > paths.
> >
> > If I want to add a local trust anchor for localhost I will then
> > need additional code to disable the workaround for the fact the
> > root doesn't have a insecure delegation.
> >
> > Mark
> > --
> > Mark Andrews, ISC
> > 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
> > PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org
> >
> 
> --94eb2c05f4ca9dd1520558a42ee2
> Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> 
> <div dir=3D"auto">The discussion had covered the failure mode problem. Ther=
> e is substantial agreement that it&#39;s better for a stub that issues a qu=
> ery for localhost to fail than to succeed. You seem to disagree.<div dir=3D=
> "auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">You haven&#39;t stated a reason for disa=
> greeing=E2=80=94instead you&#39;ve vigorously asserted that this is true. I=
> t&#39;s fine for you to do this, but if you were to get your way, that woul=
> d be exactly the bad outcome I want to avoid.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto">=
> <br></div><div dir=3D"auto">So if there really is a problem here, it would =
> be good for you to make it clear. Your stated desire to preserve flexibilit=
> y makes sense to me, but it doesn&#39;t contradict the reason already given=
>  for <i>not </i>providing that flexibility.=C2=A0</div><div dir=3D"auto"><b=
> r></div><div dir=3D"auto">Is there some <i>other</i> reason why this is imp=
> ortant to you, or is that it?</div></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><di=
> v class=3D"gmail_quote">On Sep 7, 2017 8:06 PM, &quot;Mark Andrews&quot; &l=
> t;<a href=3D"mailto:marka@isc.org">marka@isc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br type=3D"=
> attribution"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
> order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><br>
> In message &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:BFAECDAF-8F4B-4C8D-AB7E-1615BD54EF93@fugue=
> .com">BFAECDAF-8F4B-4C8D-AB7E-<wbr>1615BD54EF93@fugue.com</a>&gt;fugue.com</a>&gt;, Ted Lemo=
> n writes:<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; On Sep 7, 2017, at 12:59 AM, Mark Andrews &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marka@=
> isc.org">marka@isc.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
> &gt; &gt; I shouldn&#39;t BE FORCED to hard code special LOCALHOST rules in=
> to DNS<br>
> &gt; &gt; tools.=C2=A0 Lookups should &quot;just work&quot; like they did b=
> efore the root<br>
> &gt; &gt; zone was signed.<br>
> &gt;<br>
> &gt; Because...?<br>
> <br>
> Because there are things you can do with localhost as a DNS zone<br>
> that you can&#39;t do with /etc/hosts, NIS, etc. as they are limited<br>
> to addresses only.<br>
> <br>
> Localhost should work just like home.arpa.=C2=A0 The tools we use shouldn&#=
> 39;t<br>
> need special knowledge.=C2=A0 Special knowledge means EVERYTHING needs<br>
> to be tested to see if it works with localhost as well and regular<br>
> names.=C2=A0 That testing will get missed.=C2=A0 If it doesn&#39;t get miss=
> ed it<br>
> costs more money.=C2=A0 Workarounds for different behavior increases the<br=
> >
> probability of bugs being introduced as there will be seperate code<br>
> paths.<br>
> <br>
> If I want to add a local trust anchor for localhost I will then<br>
> need additional code to disable the workaround for the fact the<br>
> root doesn&#39;t have a insecure delegation.<br>
> <br>
> Mark<br>
> --<br>
> Mark Andrews, ISC<br>
> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia<br>
> PHONE: <a href=3D"tel:%2B61%202%209871%204742" value=3D"+61298714742">+61 2=
>  9871 4742</a>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
> =A0INTERNET: <a href=3D"mailto:marka@isc.org">marka@isc.org</a><br>
> </blockquote></div></div>
> 
> --94eb2c05f4ca9dd1520558a42ee2--
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org