Re: [DNSOP] ALT-TLD and (insecure) delgations.

"Woodworth, John R" <John.Woodworth@CenturyLink.com> Wed, 08 February 2017 23:56 UTC

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From: "Woodworth, John R" <John.Woodworth@CenturyLink.com>
To: "'Brian Dickson'" <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
Thread-Topic: [DNSOP] ALT-TLD and (insecure) delgations.
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Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2017 23:56:30 +0000
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References: <CAH1iCiqXohb_7LsQ2EMo8ZB-t20mKq_nUDS8vebhtSXoM13DTg@mail.gmail.com> <20170203210922.7286C618213C@rock.dv.isc.org> <CAH1iCipKwcOsMQY3kjvSZ42LMK37GLD6GP2AVtnWK0c83k-RiA@mail.gmail.com> <20170207040552.8BDCC632F192@rock.dv.isc.org> <3581BE55-B178-4298-8EE8-73FD16B4216D@gmail.com> <D4C0D518-A3ED-4555-93DA-2EA12D82A662@fugue.com> <CAHw9_iK7Vt+ZNw8=E-b+w9gGhwB9fZNqHYp2pqKqT__RgcDttQ@mail.gmail.com> <5CA637EE-C0B6-4E5C-A446-A84431176D0C@fugue.com> <20170207205554.B6974633BE40@rock.dv.isc.org> <18F2EB0D-5BD0-4CC5-B02C-2E5EA0B8CC23@fugue.com> <20170207214846.B66EF633C6C5@rock.dv.isc.org> <FB835756-2C46-40A9-88ED-2F8ADF812BA6@fugue.com> <20170208052544.862956356F33@rock.dv.isc.org> <FFAFD844-824C-44EA-A4B1-1AD28B4FE95C@fugue.com> <20170208060208.8C8E1635864D@rock.dv.isc.org> <E0A42577-0984-4ADD-8658-91413CBE783D@fugue.com> <20170208194208.DB02C635DD72@rock.dv.isc.org> <00767076-FA43-42C0-A4AF-39F4E1087F11@fugue.com> <20170208203018.CF0B5635DFA1@rock.dv.isc.org> <A6839264-7054-4A08-828B-66BFA6C94352@fugue.com> <20170208224131.256CC635E87D@rock.dv.isc.org> <CAH1iCirKzmjkOSKoHG56NqjgMO8SrW2ThoH47RK3VhtJ=vDM+w@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: "dnsop@ietf.org WG" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "Woodworth, John R" <John.Woodworth@CenturyLink.com>, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com>, "Ballew, Dean" <Dean.Ballew@CenturyLink.com>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] ALT-TLD and (insecure) delgations.
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> On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>
> In message <A6839264-7054-4A08-828B-66BFA6C94352@fugue.com>, Ted Lemon writes:
> >
> > On Feb 8, 2017, at 3:30 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
> > > And if the service has the same privacy issues as .onion has?
> > >
> > > So we leak names until every recursive server in the world is
> > > validating (what % is that today?) and supports agressive negative
> > > caching (still a I-D).
> >
> > I feel like I am arguing with a wall, so if this doesn't work I will just
> > give up.   But if it's okay for us to ask resolvers to make a chance, it
> > is okay for us to ask resolvers to make the right change.   And if they
> > don't, yes, it's possible that some queries will leak.   There is nothing
> > we can do to prevent that other than harden caching servers and stub
> > resolvers; if we are going to do that, we might as well do it right, by
> > caching the full proof of nonexistence, rather lying about what's in the
> > root zone.
>
> Actually we can do something that doesn't require that validation
> be enabled.  We don't have to create that linkage.  It's not like
> the names are not supposed to exist.  They do/will exist and not
> as in they are/will be squatted upon.
>
> I'm confused here.
>
> The point of ALT (and/or LCL if a 2nd draft is created), and ONION, is
> that they exist ONLY within their own (local) scope, if they exist at all.
>
> From the viewpoint of the global DNS, they do not exist, and the point
> of those I-Ds/RFCs is to enforce that non-existence, in the global scope.
>
> My problem with what you are proposes, is that it removes the mechanism
> for that enforcement.
>
> Here's a thought - for any/all validating stubs, use CD=1 for names in the
> set of "things that are meant to be local", and turn off validation of
> those.  That *should*, if I understand 4035's directives for CD=1, prevent
> validation by the recursive resolver in use by the client, and will return
> whatever answers are present, with or without DNSSEC records.
>
> Or, perhaps the organizations that represent the requestor of the 6761
> names, could establish something like a "distrust anchor" - a trust
> anchor which is only to be used for signing negative assertions
> about the TLD name, or assertions about its insecure status to enable
> local service of the TLD name, and which can be published to the
> community, along with a static DNS zone file to be served by the
> <name>-aware resolvers?
>
> Again, just to reiterate, in the global root zone, and for any resolvers
> which are not yet onion-aware, onion does not exist and must not exist.
>
> For onion-aware resolvers, everything related to onion is just an
> optimization; avoiding leakage for privacy reasons might be an issue
> for some folks, but IMHO must not tread on the previous requirement
> - that onion must not exist in the root, and must not appear to exist
> to any onion-unaware resolvers.
>
> If you want to find a way to fix that, without resulting in BOGUS or
> SERVFAIL, there may be ways that aren't easy, but the one way not
> permitted by the published RFCs is, an unsigned delegation in the root.
>

I would like to just throw this out there again.. what about a new
RR type to actively flag the owner as officially not-existing?
I could even volunteer to write this if it seems reasonable.

It seems to me this issue has come up a number of times (.onion, etc.)
and it keeps needing to be solved each time.  The 6761, etc. and related
special-use registry contains a number of 'SHOULD' and 'SHOULD NOT'
requirements that need to be compiled into software, why not generalize
this a bit more just in case it happens again.

There is also the small matter of money vs. free.  If a zone is "simply"
delegated in the root zone, at some future point this delegation "could"
become a free service.  Without definitive "technical" rational for name
use, this is a difficult sell.  By defining an RR type purposefully
preventing this condition, it might be an easier pitch. Just a thought.


Thanks,
John

> I'm not sure why you disagree with this, it is clear as day in the
> relevant RFCs.
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
> Oh sorry, you can't have privacy unless you validate.  And only
> because people are too scared to ask for changes to the root
> zone to add a delegation.
>
> Mark
> --
> Mark Andrews, ISC
> 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
> PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org
>
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