Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-13.txt
Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> Fri, 25 June 2021 18:03 UTC
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From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:02:54 -0400
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To: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-13.txt
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On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 10:22 AM Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote: > > On 24 Jun 2021, at 19:21, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote: > > >>> I'd also like it to say more clearly up front that .ALT is for names that are > >>> totally outside the DNS protocols, not for names handled locally using DNS protocols. > >>> It's for things like .onion, not like .local. > >> > >> Both .onion and .local use protocols other than the DNS, acknowledging of course that the protocol used for names under .local is quite DNS-like. > > > > My wording wasn't great -- .local resolves to an IP address while .alt doesn't. > > I'm not sure that helps. Some (but, sure, perhaps not all) non-DNS resolution protocols can certainly be used to identify IP addresses. Not all queries under .local are for addresses, either. PTR, SRV and TXT are common, for example. > > >> Did I miss the conversation where the working group decided to pivot? (Not a rhetorical question! I am very prepared for the answer to be yes :-) If anybody has a handy pointer to the relevant part of the mailing list archive I'd appreciate it. > > > > If you mean draft-arends-private-use-tld, that was tilting at a different windmill. > > I'm quite familiar with draft-ietf-dnsop-private-use-tld; I'm a co-author. > > draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld was adopted by the working group as a way to anchor a set of possible namespaces that had no requirements to be globally unique, or had no "meaning on the global context" or were not "delegated in the DNS". > > In order to avoid the above issues, we reserve the ALT label. Unless > the name desired is globally unique, has meaning on the global > context and is delegated in the DNS, it should be considered an > alternate namespace, and follow the ALT label scheme outlined below. > The ALT label MAY be used in any domain name as a pseudo-TLD to > signify that this is an alternate (non-DNS) namespace. > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld/00/ section 3 > > The document doesn't call it out as an explicit example, but I thought it was intended that the set of candidate namespaces included private-use (non-globally-unique) namespaces that use the DNS, as well as namespaces that use other resolution protocols. > > alt-tld-13 makes it much more explicit that .ALT is not intended for namespaces that use the DNS. So this is a change from the original document. > > It looks like this change happened between -07 and -08 (e.g. "Made it clear that this is only for non-DNS" in Appendix A) but I don't recall any conversation about reducing the scope on the mailing list. That's what I was asking about. This required some archeology... The WGLC for the document was started on March 12, 2017: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/tdp-OH3cYf6B9M0Kj1i7d2n6_KE and said (emphasis mine): "Per the discussion in our interim meeting a couple of weeks ago, the editors have revised this document and the chairs are opening a Working Group Last Call. Please let us know, on the list, whether you support advancing draft-dnsop-alt-tld-08 to the IESG for publication. The document has been stable for awhile except for one significant change in the new version. *** As discussed in the interim, it now clarifies that “.alt” is intended for use with domain names intended to be resolved outside of the DNS protocol.*** With IETF 98 upon us, we’re giving this a little extra time (3 weeks). Starts: 13 March 2017 Ends: 3 April 2017 " Looking back through slides and email and such: We had a DNSOP Interim Meeting on Feb 16 2017 (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2017-dnsop-01/session/dnsop and [0]). I've posted a copy of the slides here: http://www.owl-stretching-time.com/presentations/ALT_TLD_2017_Interim.pdf Slide 8 says: "Reserves a string (ALT) to be used as a TLD label in non-DNS contexts, or for names that have no meaning in a global context. • Text in red seems incorrect. This was intended to be for names outside the DNS protocol - like .onion" (with the 'or for names that have no meaning in a global context.' in red). The meeting summary is posted here: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/23_KtO4BLQP9vZMFwA75FKEKYV8 So, the change was in response to feedback from the Feb 16th 2017 joint DNSOP interim meeting. I can look further to try and find the emails, but hopefully this is clear enough? W [0]: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/O7jF1F6bgR6VAjlMzm-9TctCSXs > > > Joe > _______________________________________________ > DNSOP mailing list > DNSOP@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop -- The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get confused by the complexities of his own making. -- E. W. Dijkstra
- [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-13.t… internet-drafts
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-… Ben Schwartz
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-… John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-… Warren Kumari
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-… John R Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-… Warren Kumari
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-… Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-… Andrew McConachie