Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-13.txt

Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net> Fri, 25 June 2021 18:03 UTC

Return-Path: <warren@kumari.net>
X-Original-To: dnsop@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: dnsop@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 090843A0E07 for <dnsop@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 11:03:38 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.899
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JXbAGTk23HeU for <dnsop@ietfa.amsl.com>; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 11:03:33 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-lf1-x12d.google.com (mail-lf1-x12d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::12d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5FF53A0E05 for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 11:03:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by mail-lf1-x12d.google.com with SMTP id i13so17650765lfc.7 for <dnsop@ietf.org>; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 11:03:32 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kumari-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KDxbQl55Ws3dzl5JxqQsyCtYnwDthVLPqquTnqbJXKc=; b=1ga8X9GCNfemWV/qF2d9K+dXSqqHRSHH8u2UqQFI1THkLHJf5C8T8Dz/VqOAx8LoaR rLuTQSc0Q/vNGhq0bSwt79Bcijq4iqOQc6qolesSHXUhE8kxCcWOYd2ZUJsWQCP3zKcU a9otbayvs5WjmffGbIQrFvJKcc+C9+URhUJnW+QbTksD36wAN4MB+G3ZzzZVI9BvD4tg upOGX56thO7qJ8wdnPmWwMJh6JsEl6AW+ecQ1e9nw5AgJhh5Ku/Nw67lSxIXjSUKVqIQ 3OTY9di9U4PqOM7BMHnqv50cVDh6715byhOWsiIrAODnX1xYIU2Yd7//Q8Aj5bdQaOHX XUOw==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=KDxbQl55Ws3dzl5JxqQsyCtYnwDthVLPqquTnqbJXKc=; b=frhtmZZJjrpLMjSmAvypKSOF5szU7iSaKCilacnTCBHTOon1hyJrb7PH6/26icPM8y Rk83LnsEaQ6H4QA8v7DsbmX0O3az+Qusq/Xp7gbGR+gGMo86woASMw4QAzhrKHPo8M1D iMvdpSDJHTfjg7B/gQDCGHsAVfKKOrlsi0fm3k4iD89w+Mb55EScE9UVLkviPVe8m8m8 Yp2shb5Dh9qG8G/BsIaScwtDnIXkthN6qs1AmU/RadrISycooC9IPZXotmMk/7vVrfbg vi/TRri3id50dOSXx1ijzcFytvHChfHRzlRRaIgCAkpqhePBeETGWbCCTAJ+Bg/IOm0L 9JZg==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM53216RFHfeJHAynrhIdh1aojDj58VKYWjFeXbC5OhBf28XIM9rSX G0kSyH9NWEkMLEmqK3WDmnuxpOY1okvfCxohiu5oYw==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyQMQyV3+rgfgPIbz0eF+JHvCzgB/lvIPExsx3t4SYMmCJJ8Ug+jPoy+nBOT9FtsPZIJtq/0g6ZQq1kJVB2uWc=
X-Received: by 2002:ac2:551b:: with SMTP id j27mr8986885lfk.459.1624644210421; Fri, 25 Jun 2021 11:03:30 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <20210624183744.491F8171A2CB@ary.qy> <55C074B8-82E6-46AE-A17B-E269868A96B8@hopcount.ca> <6c5687ad-37e2-ea38-69de-f91af45b8589@taugh.com> <FAB40029-D848-4B8E-A200-7EC005B94A4C@hopcount.ca>
In-Reply-To: <FAB40029-D848-4B8E-A200-7EC005B94A4C@hopcount.ca>
From: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 14:02:54 -0400
Message-ID: <CAHw9_iLpyZHc2F6p7ZL-4ZogVbUh_TiR_QWMUs+rndNo1P7h2A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
Cc: John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/rZW2UddpTL0Ma7LRhPb9jih30_A>
Subject: Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld-13.txt
X-BeenThere: dnsop@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: IETF DNSOP WG mailing list <dnsop.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/dnsop>, <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/dnsop/>
List-Post: <mailto:dnsop@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop>, <mailto:dnsop-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2021 18:03:38 -0000

On Fri, Jun 25, 2021 at 10:22 AM Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> wrote:
>
> On 24 Jun 2021, at 19:21, John R Levine <johnl@taugh.com> wrote:
>
> >>> I'd also like it to say more clearly up front that .ALT is for names that are
> >>> totally outside the DNS protocols, not for names handled locally using DNS protocols.
> >>> It's for things like .onion, not like .local.
> >>
> >> Both .onion and .local use protocols other than the DNS, acknowledging of course that the protocol used for names under .local is quite DNS-like.
> >
> > My wording wasn't great -- .local resolves to an IP address while .alt doesn't.
>
> I'm not sure that helps. Some (but, sure, perhaps not all) non-DNS resolution protocols can certainly be used to identify IP addresses. Not all queries under .local are for addresses, either. PTR, SRV and TXT are common, for example.
>
> >> Did I miss the conversation where the working group decided to pivot? (Not a rhetorical question! I am very prepared for the answer to be yes :-) If anybody has a handy pointer to the relevant part of the mailing list archive I'd appreciate it.
> >
> > If you mean draft-arends-private-use-tld, that was tilting at a different windmill.
>
> I'm quite familiar with draft-ietf-dnsop-private-use-tld; I'm a co-author.
>
> draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld was adopted by the working group as a way to anchor a set of possible namespaces that had no requirements to be globally unique, or had no "meaning on the global context" or were not "delegated in the DNS".
>
>    In order to avoid the above issues, we reserve the ALT label.  Unless
>    the name desired is globally unique, has meaning on the global
>    context and is delegated in the DNS, it should be considered an
>    alternate namespace, and follow the ALT label scheme outlined below.
>    The ALT label MAY be used in any domain name as a pseudo-TLD to
>    signify that this is an alternate (non-DNS) namespace.
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dnsop-alt-tld/00/ section 3
>
> The document doesn't call it out as an explicit example, but I thought it was intended that the set of candidate namespaces included private-use (non-globally-unique) namespaces that use the DNS, as well as namespaces that use other resolution protocols.
>
> alt-tld-13 makes it much more explicit that .ALT is not intended for namespaces that use the DNS. So this is a change from the original document.
>
> It looks like this change happened between -07 and -08 (e.g. "Made it clear that this is only for non-DNS" in Appendix A) but I don't recall any conversation about reducing the scope on the mailing list. That's what I was asking about.

This required some archeology...

The WGLC for the document was started on March 12, 2017:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/tdp-OH3cYf6B9M0Kj1i7d2n6_KE
and said  (emphasis mine):
"Per the discussion in our interim meeting a couple of weeks ago, the
editors have revised this document and the chairs are opening a
Working Group Last Call.

Please let us know, on the list, whether you support advancing
draft-dnsop-alt-tld-08 to the IESG for publication.

The document has been stable for awhile except for one significant
change in the new version. *** As discussed in the interim, it now
clarifies that “.alt” is intended for use with domain names intended
to be resolved outside of the DNS protocol.***

With IETF 98 upon us, we’re giving this a little extra time (3 weeks).

Starts: 13 March 2017
Ends:  3 April 2017
"


Looking back through slides  and email and such:
We had a DNSOP Interim Meeting on Feb 16 2017
(https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/interim-2017-dnsop-01/session/dnsop
and [0]).  I've posted a copy of the slides here:
http://www.owl-stretching-time.com/presentations/ALT_TLD_2017_Interim.pdf

Slide 8 says: "Reserves a string (ALT) to be used as a TLD label in
non-DNS contexts, or for names that have no meaning in a global
context.
  • Text in red seems incorrect. This was intended to be for names
outside the DNS protocol - like .onion" (with the 'or for names that
have no meaning in a global context.' in red).

The meeting summary is posted here:
https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/23_KtO4BLQP9vZMFwA75FKEKYV8

So, the  change was in response to feedback from the Feb 16th 2017
joint DNSOP interim meeting. I can look further to try and find the
emails, but hopefully this is clear enough?


W
[0]: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/O7jF1F6bgR6VAjlMzm-9TctCSXs





>
>
> Joe
> _______________________________________________
> DNSOP mailing list
> DNSOP@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dnsop



-- 
The computing scientist’s main challenge is not to get confused by the
complexities of his own making.
  -- E. W. Dijkstra