Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> Mon, 11 March 2019 05:25 UTC
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To: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: nalini elkins <nalini.elkins@e-dco.com>, doh@ietf.org, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, dnsop@ietf.org, dns-privacy@ietf.org, "Ackermann, Michael" <mackermann@bcbsm.com>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
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Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 22:24:56 -0700
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
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Christian Huitema wrote on 2019-03-10 21:14: ... > There are a bunch of conflicting requirements here, and it would be good > to tease out the contradictions. Consider the following cases: > > 1) I am using my phone, and using application-X. > > 2) I am at home, using application-X on my home computer. > > 3) I am using Wi-Fi in a hotel, and using application-X. > > 4) I am using my work laptop on the enterprise network, and using > application-X > > 5) I am using my work laptop in a hotel, and using application-X > > 6) I am using my work laptop on the network of a customer, and using > application-X. this distinction is not useful. there are two cases. a user or app trusts its network. or not. in the first case, you'll use an RDNS service which is in the set (allowed (preferred)). that is, you'll use the server you desire most out of the set that your network operator allows you to reach. in the second case, you'll use a VPN, for all of your traffic, not just for DNS, because if you hide your DNS but not the connections which result from such hiding, it will add no measurable privacy. > Today, plenty of people claim the right to control how I use the DNS: my > phone carrier, my ISP at home, the company that got the contract to > manage the hotel's Wi-Fi, the IT manager for my company's laptop, the IT > manager for the company that I am visiting. Out of those, there is just > one scenario for which the claim has some legitimacy: if the company > pays for my laptop and own the laptop, yes of course it has a legitimate > claim to control how I am using it. Otherwise, I, the user, get to > decide. If I like the application's setting better than the network's > default, then of course I expect those settings to stick. this distinction is also false. if you are using my network, then it makes no difference which of us bought you that laptop. you will use the RDNS i allow you to use. RDNS is part of the control plane, and i use it for both monitoring and control. sometimes that's so that i can see malware beacon to its C&C. sometimes that's so that i can institute parental controls. if you don't like my rules, you should vote with your feet, and not visit me. because that is the only choice you will have. (yes, i will be part of a major new project to identify and block all DoH services, so that behavioural security policies can still work, because you may have noticed that the internet has never become MORE secure from new tech, but it occasionally becomes LESS secure more slowly because of policy.) quoting again the salient passage of RFC 8484's self-damning introduction: > ... Two primary use cases were considered during this protocol's > development. These use cases are preventing on-path devices from > interfering with DNS operations, ... let me give you advance notice: "i aim to misbehave."[1] that is, _i am on-path, and i intend to interfere._ why on earth the IETF decided to equate dissidents (of whom there are tens of thousands, all of which need full VPN's not just DoH for actual safety) with bots (of which there are tens of millions), and set up a war between end users and network operators, i will never understand, or try to. now, we fight. -- P Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [dns-privacy] [Doh] Ne… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [EXTERNAL] [Doh] New: d… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Neil Cook
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [EXTERNAL] [Doh] New: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Yishai Beeri (yishaib)
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Yishai Beeri (yishaib)
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Haberman
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Adam Roach
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Bob Harold
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] [Doh] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… william manning
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Watson Ladd
- Re: [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-… Paul Vixie