Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator
Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> Tue, 12 March 2019 18:27 UTC
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From: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>
To: Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, Jim Reid <jim@rfc1035.com>, DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 18:27:11 +0000
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Organization: Vixie Freehold
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Subject: Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator
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On Monday, 11 March 2019 18:30:51 UTC Ted Hardie wrote: > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 11:06 AM Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org> wrote: > > DoH will moot that approach. > > Any system that actually checks the credentials presented by the responding > server will also moot that approach. yes! but it will fail "closed". thus, no unauthorized exfiltration risk will exist. > Given how easy it is to pin > credential characteristics in applications distributed as binaries, this > seems to mean that your method will either continue to permit applications > other than browsers to use their own resolution systems or it will hard > fail all such applications it can identify. No pass through will work, as > far as I can tell, in that scenario. that's precisely the goal, because very few network operators can preordain the users and apps that will connect through their networks. to the extent that monitoring ('dnstap') and controlling (DNS RPZ) dns lookups by connected users and apps is considered a vital local security policy, attempts at such "pass through" must be made to fail. > > Perhaps, though, I am missing something about your intent. > i think you've restated some key points of my position with perfect accuracy. DoH wants to empower users and apps to make decisions about their RDNS which cannot be interfered with by on-path actors such as their own network operators. by doing this, DoH makes a false equivalence between a dissident (who may be considered a criminal in some places) and a criminal (who is always considered a criminal in most places) and private users in a hotel room or coffee shop or on their home broadband connection, and malware which gets inside a network and wants to avoid detection/mitigation while performing lookups or exfiltration. those are four very different things. demanding identical treatment for all of them is, in the best possible interpretation, naive. vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Warren Kumari
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ask Bjørn Hansen
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Michael Sinatra
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator John Todd
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ralf Weber
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator nalini elkins
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Adam Roach
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator 神明達哉
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator John Levine
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jim Reid
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Wes Hardaker
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Christian Huitema
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eric Rescorla
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ray Bellis
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator sthaug
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-r… Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] (dhc discovery) New I-D: draft-… Normen B. Kowalewski
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Bill Woodcock
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Livingood, Jason
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Joe Abley
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Puneet Sood
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Richard Bennett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Richard Bennett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Wes Hardaker
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Paul Wouters
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Olli Vanhoja
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Mark Andrews
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ian Swett
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… sthaug
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Valentin Gosu
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ray Bellis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Eliot Lear
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ray Bellis
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Puneet Sood
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Tony Finch
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ted Lemon
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Paul Vixie
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… tirumal reddy
- Re: [DNSOP] [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… tirumal reddy