Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator
Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com> Wed, 20 March 2019 03:17 UTC
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From: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 20:17:25 -0700
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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Cc: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>, Michael Sinatra <michael@brokendns.net>, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, paul vixie <paul@redbarn.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator
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On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 6:42 PM Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> wrote: > > Hiya, > > One individualistic data point on this sub-topic, and a real point: > > On 20/03/2019 01:13, Jared Mauch wrote: > > My impression is there are people who will not be satisfied until all > traffic looks > > identical and you have zero way to protect your home, > > I do not claim that everyone ought do the same, but I absolutely > do claim that encouraging voluntary policy adherence by dealing > with the people using the n/w is preferable to many egregiously > invasive attempts to force technical policy enforcement on > unwilling serf-like users. > So, this is the problem: - If a network operator has any policy that is enforceable, ONLY the technical policy enforcement model scales. - In such an environment, there are only, ever, "willing users", because, in order to use the network, they are required to agree to the policies. This makes the argument you have above, a vacuously defined one. You want to encourage voluntary policy adherence for a non-existent set of otherwise unwilling users. I understand your position: you would prefer that {some,all} networks were not employing policies that {you,some people} disagree with. I sympathize, but I disagree. What we need are mechanisms that scale. My position (personally) is that we find ways to have scalable, technical mechanisms. They should allow users (or machine administrators) to be as compliant as they are willing, and no more. They should allow networks to enforce their policies, while treading as lightly as possible. It should be possible to use technical means to handle this negotiation with little to no user input required. The analogy is roughly that of escalation-of-force in law enforcement, starting at a level of "polite requests". You can disagree, but I implore you: please don't stand in the way of those wanting to find consensus on scalable, flexible, technical solutions that encompass a wide range of network policies and enforcement needs. The main point is, I believe the end result will be mechanisms that allow you to deploy networks that meet your needs, and software that you can configure to bypass such controls, but that neither of those should ever be the default configurations. If the results allow you to do what you want/need, and also allow others to do what they want/need, everyone should be happy enough with the result. Can we at least agree on this as a desired goal for this work? Brian
- [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Warren Kumari
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ask Bjørn Hansen
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Warren Kumari
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- [Doh] GDPR and IETF protocols (Was: New I-D: draf… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and IETF protocols Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Michael Sinatra
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ralf Weber
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Martin Thomson
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Adam Roach
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator nalini elkins
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Joe Abley
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Adam Roach
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator 神明達哉
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Wes Hardaker
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator sthaug
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Joe Abley
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Joe Abley
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Bill Woodcock
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Joe Abley
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Puneet Sood
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Richard Bennett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Wes Hardaker
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Olli Vanhoja
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Mark Andrews
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ian Swett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… sthaug
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Valentin Gosu
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Puneet Sood
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Tony Finch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Petr Špaček
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… tirumal reddy
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… tirumal reddy