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Wed, 27 Mar 2019 15:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id E4EF1BEF6; Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:46:44 +0000 (GMT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HpmA0_lVELKA; Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:46:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from [31.133.146.21] (dhcp-9215.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.146.21]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96CCABEE5; Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:46:40 +0000 (GMT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1553726800; bh=u71dIrxFTJ1iOik5b27W65yi1sBofMMm2Ay9HRfXkl4=; h=Subject:To:Cc:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=eT4d8HyLp2nexItDNC3u53nJMf+eWAWAGxiO+12EXu4LUr/V6s0NyYTPhY7PLkoW+ R2xIJY2dJosuQu6a6zMU/q4u+VZojNgLMZWbQQvp30ozDqCavZGttMLo5kcvbLzHHs KDW695ibQy2Q63Yb4hmEwojcMJOXzc4aHTG4ABWI= To: Brian Dickson Cc: DoH WG References: <7d8c0bde-3393-7a48-ceeb-cf6db191f260@cs.tcd.ie> From: Stephen Farrell Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; 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Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="pVJElKS8NGp1sv315y9N3rhlYXZdCWAQg" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Doh] Mozilla's plans re: DoH X-BeenThere: doh@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: DNS Over HTTPS List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 22:46:53 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --pVJElKS8NGp1sv315y9N3rhlYXZdCWAQg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="88EpiFlPZ1lxBb739LEDyTPA2kosdk4g6"; protected-headers="v1" From: Stephen Farrell To: Brian Dickson Cc: DoH WG Message-ID: <24f0d96b-c6e3-97b8-7ead-b1853b4171f6@cs.tcd.ie> Subject: Re: [Doh] Mozilla's plans re: DoH References: <7d8c0bde-3393-7a48-ceeb-cf6db191f260@cs.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: --88EpiFlPZ1lxBb739LEDyTPA2kosdk4g6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------E219015855847E2F204E4F44" Content-Language: en-GB This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E219015855847E2F204E4F44 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hiya, On 27/03/2019 20:08, Brian Dickson wrote: > On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 7:50 PM Stephen Farrell > wrote: >=20 >> >> Hiya, >> >> On 27/03/2019 17:34, Brian Dickson wrote: >>> dissident mode >> >=20 > If you are going to quote me, please do me the courtesy of doing so > correctly. I did. > I wrote ' "dissident mode" ', not 'dissident mode' (i.e. it was in quot= es, > to indicate that I recognize its connotations, but that there is no sho= rt > phrase that captures the nuances.) There are no such quotes in your mail as rendered by my MUA. > I am open to alternate terms, provided they also capture the nuances. >=20 > (I would also note that the person from the ACLU was specifically refer= ring > to dissidents, it was not me alone who used the term.) >=20 > What I would like to distinguish is: >=20 > - Persons whose safety requires that their communications and DNS us= age > be encrypted to trusted servers; persons who do not have alternative= ways > of accessing trusted DNS, and who by necessity must take actions (us= ing > third party encrypted DNS) which may be in violations of laws, contr= acts, > or terms of service (which may be unconscionable but technically leg= al); > persons who are acting in solidarity with the aforementioned folks, = or > participating in acts of civil disobedience, and > - Persons who are taking advantage of legal, permissible, explicitly= > allowed, and openly available third party DNS over encrypted channel= s, and > refraining from such usage if access is blocked. I do not accept the above as a useful distinction for this topic. Those in the category of your first bullet can only be protected by technology when (essentially) all those in other categories use the same technology. (That said, I could quibble with your text, but won't for now:-) But, and it's a big but, those whose safety is not at risk (today), also have valid interests to protect, and mechanisms that we have to offer for such protection need to be widely deployed to be effective. > - From a technological basis, the desire is to facilitate this > distinction at scale. One obvious mechanism would be to use distinct TCP > port numbers, even if the DoH server is the same (and the same IP address > and TLS certificate are used). >=20 > To facilitate the ongoing discussions, we need some suitable label for = the > former. > If you find the term I originally used objectionable, please provide on= e > for the first group, DISTINCT FROM any corresponding label for the seco= nd > group. I won't, sorry. I don't accept your proposed dichotomy as valid. IOW, our disagreement isn't about the word, but the concept that such a (likely small) set of people are a usefully distinct set for this discussion. Cheers, S. PS: I won't respond to your other text below as I think doing so would be repetitive with the above or wouldn't further the discussion. >=20 > Making assertions that the two groups are actually one group is much wo= rse > for the ongoing discussions, and would be materially inaccurate, > deliberately conflating the two groups, highly counterproductive, and > inflammatory. I would politely ask that you refrain from doing so. (I a= m > not claiming that you have done so, I'm just trying to dissuade such in= > anticipation of the possibility.) >=20 > I welcome any label you prefer for the first group. >=20 > For the second group, any different label from the first group would be= > fine; I'd suggest "privacy-aware". They use privacy by choice, not by > strict necessity (on threat of violence or death), and are freely able = to > make that choice with no personal consequences. >=20 > What I am interested in pursing is ways to protect the first group, whi= le > enabling the ability for legitimate enterprise policy enforcement (e.g.= > blocking) to be done scalably. > E.g. Make the traffic of the second group identifiable, and to encourag= e > (or require) that how browsers implement the access to the third-party = DNS > services over encrypted channels, provide a scalable way for networks t= o > block usage for the second group. >=20 > Here is why having an easy way to distinguish the two groups, at a netw= ork > level (i.e. TCP port), is important, IMHO: > The best protection for the first group, is to have them easily > distinguished from the second group. > The logic is a bit non-obvious, so let me attempt to explain. > The typical volume of traffic by all members of the second group, is li= kely > to be significantly higher than the first group. > If enterprise networks have ways of blocking the second group, and if t= he > users in the first group only enable their specific "mode" for limited > intervals, the occasional burst of traffic from the first group won't > likely result in the enterprise wanting to attempt to block the first > group. This has the benefit of not having persistent use of the mechani= sms > of the first group, and doesn't create the residual risk (e.g. of malwa= re > abuse of the first group's DNS traffic). > On the other hand, if the exact same mechanism is used by both groups, = and > there is no practical/simple method of blocking only the second group, = the > resulting scenario is lose/lose/lose (possibly more "lose" terms). > The enterprise would need to employ costly (due to not being scalable),= > possibly less reliable/available border enforcement, or risk any of the= > side effects of unconstrained/unblocked DNS carried outside the enterpr= ise > via encrypted transport. The impact to the users would be uniform; the > second group would be inconvenienced, while the first group would lose > their necessary (by definition) DNS privacy. >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >> >> As stated at the side-meeting, I think the above phrase is >> counterproductive and inaccurate and it'd be a fine thing >> if we stopped using that kind of wording. >> >> > It may be counterproductive, but it is accurate. >=20 > I am distinguishing two use cases, even when the same underlying techno= logy > is employed (DNS carried via HTTPS). One is where the user would like t= o > use the technology, and where the access may or may not be permitted, a= nd > the user does not exceed the permissions (and thus either uses a differ= ent > provided DNS service, possibly encrypted, possibly not, or does not use= r > the network at all.) The other use case is where the user must use the > technology without regard to whether this activity is permitted. >=20 > The first group is best categorized as dissidents. From an online > dictionary: >=20 >> a person who opposes official policy, especially that of an authorita= rian >> state. >> "a dissident who had been jailed by a military regime" >> synonyms: dissenter, objector, protester, disputant; freethinker, >> nonconformist, independent thinker; rebel, revolutionary, recusant, >> renegade; subversive, agitator, insurgent, insurrectionist, >> insurrectionary, mutineer; informal: refusenik >> "a dissident who had been jailed by the regime" >=20 >=20 > If you object to the phrase, please provide a semantically equivalent b= ut > inoffensive phrase. >=20 > Brian >=20 > P.S. It may not be clear, but I definitely am in favor of providing DoH= to > everyone who requires it, i.e. members of this specific group. >=20 > P.P.S. I disagree with "conscripting" unaware users into using the same= > mechanism using opt-out, always-on resolution via DoH to third party > providers. Doing so may place them in jeopardy of one form or another, = and > is especially objectionable when it is done without explicit and inform= ed > consent. The other reason for using technology to block only the second= > group, is to protect any users who accidentally leave an application or= > device in the "privacy" mode, when they are on a network which prohibit= s > encrypted access to third party DNS providers. The blockage protects th= e > network; the requirement for explicit user consent to break network pol= icy > (and bypass the blockage) is what protects the wayward, innocent user. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Doh mailing list > Doh@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh >=20 --------------E219015855847E2F204E4F44 Content-Type: application/pgp-keys; name="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="0x5AB2FAF17B172BEA.asc" -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nem CP5PMvmh5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kT q0IqYzsEv5HI58S+QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtE gvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKrEMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy +pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZUbUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5 iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqOVz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9 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