Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator
Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca> Wed, 20 March 2019 11:38 UTC
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From: Joe Abley <jabley@hopcount.ca>
In-Reply-To: <EA89EA1A-A1EA-4887-9294-4F68AB5C3211@puck.nether.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:38:05 +0100
Cc: Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>, Ted Hardie <ted.ietf@gmail.com>, DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, dnsop <dnsop@ietf.org>, paul vixie <paul@redbarn.org>, Michael Sinatra <michael@brokendns.net>, Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
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To: Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
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Subject: Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator
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[There is actually a proposal at the bottom of this e-mail. Bear with me.] On 20 Mar 2019, at 11:09, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net> wrote: > Often as an industry we may discuss various solutions that are great for oneself but don’t scale when looking at the big picture. I think what we are seeing is the fundamental tension between privacy and control. You need to give up some privacy in order to make the control possible; you need to give up some control in order to afford privacy. Some in this thread want certainty that they are able to exercise control, e.g. for devices in their network. Some in this thread want certainty that they can obtain privacy, e.g. for for their device in any network. When those people meet, the pitchforks come out. This is already true today; it's not a new DoH problem. I think the balance of the tensions has shifted with the prospect of a change in default behaviour, not because any of this is fundamentally new. The change in defaults tips the power balance (e.g. the balance of cost) between control and privacy. This is Paul's basic point, I think. Some people seem to be getting worked up about whether the desire for control is more important than the desire for privacy. I don't think that question has an answer, but I think most reasonable people could acknowledge that both positions exist. This is Stephen's basic point, I think. It's possible today to communicate over covert channels in order to avoid control. This is different from *all* communication happening over covert channels so that no control in the future is possible. That's not how things happen today; that would be a change, a new situation. This is your basic point, I think (that's how I read "scale" in your e-mail, above). Seems to me that there's a middle ground within sight here. Standardise this privacy mechanism, and specify (with reasoning) that it should be implemented such that the existence of the channel (but not the content) can be identified as distinct from other traffic by third parties. Maybe specify use of a different port number, as was done with DoT. Those who choose to ignore that direction and create a covert channel using port 443 instead will do so. Nothing much we can do to stop that today (I guarantee it is already happening). The future is not really different. Of course when people shift the focus of the conversation from DoH in general to resolverless DNS, and want to interleave DNS messages with HTML and cat GIFs over the same HTTPS bundles, the pitchforks will need to come out again. So keep them handy. Joe
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- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Warren Kumari
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ask Bjørn Hansen
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Warren Kumari
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- [Doh] GDPR and IETF protocols (Was: New I-D: draf… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and IETF protocols Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Michael Sinatra
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ralf Weber
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Ted Hardie
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- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Martin Thomson
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Adam Roach
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator nalini elkins
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Joe Abley
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Adam Roach
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator 神明達哉
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Matthew Pounsett
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jacques Latour
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Wes Hardaker
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator sthaug
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Joe Abley
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-r… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Joe Abley
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Eliot Lear
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- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
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- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
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- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Jared Mauch
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- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] New I-D: draft-reid-doh-operator Paul Vixie
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- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Olli Vanhoja
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- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Mark Andrews
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
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- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… sthaug
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Valentin Gosu
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Patrick McManus
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Ted Lemon
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Eliot Lear
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- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Tony Finch
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- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Petr Špaček
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… tirumal reddy
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [EXTERNAL] Re: New I-D: draft-r… tirumal reddy