Re: [Doh] A question of trust (was Re: Draft -09 and WGLC #2)

Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com> Wed, 30 May 2018 01:22 UTC

Return-Path: <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
X-Original-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41A3812EB45 for <doh@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:22:58 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.234
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8TDpJiO5EHru for <doh@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:22:56 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from linode64.ducksong.com (linode6only.ducksong.com [IPv6:2600:3c02::f03c:91ff:fe6e:e8da]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F316612EBAA for <doh@ietf.org>; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-ot0-f169.google.com (mail-ot0-f169.google.com [74.125.82.169]) by linode64.ducksong.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6DE7D3A042 for <doh@ietf.org>; Tue, 29 May 2018 21:22:55 -0400 (EDT)
Received: by mail-ot0-f169.google.com with SMTP id t1-v6so19231372ott.13 for <doh@ietf.org>; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Gm-Message-State: ALKqPwdXReH33L14dy9Sflwmg3ApWAGRA8k5+x9npLTnwQc7JAO7s/rC yMWz5KGp/ph97F2q1bYhMIGUFRuWL3HnqcewiRg=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ADUXVKIUXAR6xqPVSfrbjVmGZ43jbL+XdPdfAcBrQf/U40yNuJkwWkJejEwncA7B+4BS83YBRsX5ImiFkAo+4Ig8mqQ=
X-Received: by 2002:a9d:419c:: with SMTP id p28-v6mr513088ote.2.1527643375115; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:22:55 -0700 (PDT)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Received: by 2002:a4a:8a32:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Tue, 29 May 2018 18:22:54 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <DB7D40D6-455A-48DD-AB98-DF2CF0866222@sinodun.com>
References: <CAHbrMsCxkogJ-fzubf7cPgvbeGAhWUFKV3crrmn4ee6=fDnqwQ@mail.gmail.com> <382ba525100a4561b086fe8b8b6527be@ustx2ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com> <603D7553-D1A9-4DCC-9E74-199059C56A9F@sinodun.com> <1daad94d-99c1-803a-f52c-1dd17adefb7a@o2.pl> <CAOdDvNrpLwF5jpn1YA4-HXsfGxVkdds+xHVd6Bxy0Ux+3nrcrA@mail.gmail.com> <CA9BEE64-9F16-4CCC-A1E0-4C7FD45C455C@icann.org> <20180528161043.GB12038@mx4.yitter.info> <CABkgnnV3kKFCzKLfPf_0WZh95jr2vEt652Rb4EozfqROCVsJdA@mail.gmail.com> <CAOdDvNrPU9WM3WgcX1AVF39D3bGdxCKgPAF_afhfv2Qt0pZR5g@mail.gmail.com> <DB7D40D6-455A-48DD-AB98-DF2CF0866222@sinodun.com>
From: Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>
Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 21:22:54 -0400
X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: <CAOdDvNopKvs18jQizgyiAQq8UyB4GwdqyXfXPa+25pNrxWg8pA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOdDvNopKvs18jQizgyiAQq8UyB4GwdqyXfXPa+25pNrxWg8pA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Sara Dickinson <sara@sinodun.com>
Cc: Patrick McManus <pmcmanus@mozilla.com>, Martin Thomson <martin.thomson@gmail.com>, DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>, Andrew Sullivan <ajs@anvilwalrusden.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000b7a4d1056d623001"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/doh/Q8Nj9PTT1oHquOeRtHEXTSfHc3U>
Subject: Re: [Doh] A question of trust (was Re: Draft -09 and WGLC #2)
X-BeenThere: doh@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: DNS Over HTTPS <doh.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/doh>, <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/doh/>
List-Post: <mailto:doh@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh>, <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 01:23:04 -0000

Hi Sara,

On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 5:27 AM, Sara Dickinson <sara@sinodun.com>; wrote:

>
>
> I much prefer the approach of just discussing configuration but I don’t
> think this goes far enough in answering Andrews question or helping
> implementors work out exactly what to to. So….
>
> What does ‘configuration’ cover?
> - Just direct configuration e.g. via a client API or config file
> - Or also dynamic configuration e.g. via DHCP, assuming a future option
> for this (which raises the question of trust again….)?
>
> I support only specifying direct configuration in this document but either
> way making it more explicit.
>

I would describe [in]direct (or not) as one aspect of discovery, and the
working group has chosen to stay away from discovery in this document.

OTOH as I understand it discovery is the core topic of the DRIU bof, and is
also on topic for this WG in a different document should someone propose
such a thing.

DoH isn't trying to solve that problem with the text under discussion - its
just trying to say that the server(s) need to be bootstrapped and not
discovered via linking and pushing during unrelated HTTP activities. Using
the word "untrusted" was a mistake because it indicated more than that.

-Patrick