Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
Michael Sinatra <michael@brokendns.net> Thu, 14 March 2019 00:07 UTC
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To: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>, Brian Dickson <brian.peter.dickson@gmail.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Cc: "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "Livingood, Jason" <Jason_Livingood@comcast.com>, "doh@ietf.org" <doh@ietf.org>
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From: Michael Sinatra <michael@brokendns.net>
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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 17:07:24 -0700
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/doh/ZY-IQ4nvwbcXwe0D7dq46hZAL1M>
Subject: Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
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On 3/13/19 1:43 PM, Stephen Farrell wrote: > > (dropping dprive list at WG chair request) > > Hiya, > > On 13/03/2019 20:29, Brian Dickson wrote: >> The starting place for the conversation needs to acknowledge this, and >> accommodate it. It is entirely possible that a DoH client that doesn't do a >> minimum level of getting user acknowledgement before violating policies, >> laws, or contracts, might itself be illegal in some jurisdictions >> (jurisdictions that could include some US states, some western countries, >> some larger entities like EU, etc.). > > I almost agreed with you that people need to ack others' > priorities. But the above means I can't agree with your > mail as "might be illegal" is vastly overstated, there > being no relevant difference between DoT and DoH clients > in this respect. I believe that the issue of protocol obfuscation that I mentioned earlier in the draft-reid-doh-operator thread[1] is a relevant difference. There is another technical issue, and that surrounds the question of who is the user and what capabilities does the user have to manage their devices. This has been touched upon with the discussion on opt-in vs. default and with Paul's discussion of data exfiltration. In my home, I have an "Internet-capable" washing machine. Of course my "smart" TV wants to be on the Internet. My Foobot *must* be on the Internet just so I can monitor the air quality in my own home. I don't want the washer on the Internet at all, and for some of the other devices, I want to control what they do on my home network. With embedded and "IoT" devices, there may be limitations on how I--as the user--can control them. There may be hard-coded defaults that are difficult to change (and yet have a way of easily resetting themselves to "factory default"). Leaving aside for now the issue of licensing Ts&Cs, I--as the user--may want to have more *technical* control over the devices than their vendor is willing to give me. One way I can assert that control is via the network. On my home network, I am one of the users and I am also the network admin. I want to assert control over the devices for which *I* am the user, but the people who designed them didn't give them sufficient knobs for me to do this on the device. Another word for software which does things on the network outside of the user's control is "malware," whether it is legitimate or not, and I realize it predates DoH. But DoH legitimizes protocol obfuscation at the network layer and makes it potentially harder for me to control the devices for which I am the user. So if the goal is to give users more control, I'd assert that DoH, at best, works both ways. michael [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dnsop/Qole4yY0q_-psyrvWabaRAD8_Vc
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-do… nalini elkins
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… nalini elkins
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… nalini elkins
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… nalini elkins
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… nalini elkins
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… nalini elkins
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [EXTERNAL] [DNSOP] New: d… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-do… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-do… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Neil Cook
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-do… Neil Cook
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [EXTERNAL] [DNSOP] New: d… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Neil Cook
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Re: [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] Ne… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-do… Stephane Bortzmeyer
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Ralf Weber
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertola-bcp-do… Yishai Beeri (yishaib)
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Mark Andrews
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Paul Wouters
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… nalini elkins
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Brian Haberman
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Raymond Burkholder
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Adam Roach
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Michael Sinatra
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… william manning
- Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertol… Watson Ladd
- [Doh] GDPR and DoH Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Watson Ladd
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Adam Roach
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Brian Dickson
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Christian Huitema
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Adam Roach
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Adam Roach
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Jim Reid
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Doh] [DNSOP] [dns-privacy] New: draft-bertol… Paul Vixie
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH S Moonesamy
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Doh] GDPR and DoH Livingood, Jason