Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03

Justin Henck <henck@google.com> Thu, 08 February 2018 19:24 UTC

Return-Path: <henck@google.com>
X-Original-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3370A12706D for <doh@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:24:12 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -0.719
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.719 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AC_DIV_BONANZA=0.001, BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Tuqp-5zi5w0t for <doh@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:24:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5DBB0126CF6 for <doh@ietf.org>; Thu, 8 Feb 2018 11:24:08 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id o13so7907788ito.2 for <doh@ietf.org>; Thu, 08 Feb 2018 11:24:08 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=izt2+6TEzeBeszuHuybxg+ZAt8hM8O6xGMqV8MOa/8k=; b=gYU7RzNjZo9WMfdW8EhirX3HYaf9DMUxnMIxxj1s63J5E/vEB7+HzBBbo6LNv7XhqF tu5cjs2LqexIguOc9TdLVP1EFgd+z67y9dK0sKEnLkaa9Yut0/lr2XS8BP/B5DfnMVZR 2oK+hLwktQh+JNzroScuc7RLV/NMD1jNDDxnGsEZ602FZ5AyL7WqYvjDyulNwtNYDIib t0u61uexqAGRpfvlr5eqKafSE3poU7/uUEDnYJhsy2vTCRXS7pRSA9USpvCvSAGPLRkx pEtRySfHuKJJ13Tt1RfZjXE+U+LRzFUQ7smmWa3GUD/53qK9TgxzmEHxtvyiWqNeeCVO Ix9A==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=izt2+6TEzeBeszuHuybxg+ZAt8hM8O6xGMqV8MOa/8k=; b=egXV4EzYQv01hRMzWx0kLo2AIzoSG0eYoG7Exd9GVCYyKGpQpaYRMhB3aXdnh1voF1 Zm8f733GYiBacVC59jAJJawTlykUQT3Ph3ll2jYhvwA7JUXfQ427ntZX/ZnB5vljP9EK h11XI3t13NBbZQEWIyqYf6xRmUHHS2lkOTS9sli/N03u5+q/+oe8vj1b/r0lGkmfMIA5 SC6NrOoIR8P/fn8p76Jkf6nXQRTLfm8pikQp9woPKwdOLlDF67w51TeA5Luc4+PFsB04 57Ze5pybp4KVCm1FkPRGNoHRzELALtj+jl/WuoI2FUzpeb0QNRAth5D/o6XXFZ1eD/uv aReg==
X-Gm-Message-State: APf1xPAX7Ye3ZiKLxhOT+RYV793sBAIRGtSOA4j6zfV+7CbE8tjV2Gnt FZsTQ2D5RuDsCEJyCCLswIGfrEt4zV7gUZgoN6zqWA==
X-Google-Smtp-Source: AH8x225vLOtckGSnUl9/smP3Ci/JasukT392R45Dd/0PPX1iu8ZWMX2dQzniQCYJtHdbcdQteofmJ3N5e0685eLuVPk=
X-Received: by 10.36.224.141 with SMTP id c135mr310152ith.144.1518117847293; Thu, 08 Feb 2018 11:24:07 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <CAHbrMsDwWvtcZy8fpg9gs3o+gc_umi9okJW6rvv+s4T7K9-sVQ@mail.gmail.com> <MWHPR08MB2432FFCE097EBBB1279EAC2EDAF30@MWHPR08MB2432.namprd08.prod.outlook.com> <CAHbrMsCD4-Syy4+5PhC_c0K5TLR25gMUO5cxJUT3gC8=uT4GpA@mail.gmail.com> <CAN-AkJsdu05PWFSC2CBGEWk_8dEUsvy2GUQ6rRcc09Xbp0kS6g@mail.gmail.com> <CAAedzxqUE7AzioT5gJJs_sjq0GQjUZyhr4JBZTAv6pQjf32g6w@mail.gmail.com> <CAN-AkJsDba0qf7raYBAwbQK7F6Ov=6CXVVcAK=fFRrfRupmp4g@mail.gmail.com> <f718b5d15a564d63a0e46543e1d56fbd@usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com>
In-Reply-To: <f718b5d15a564d63a0e46543e1d56fbd@usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com>
From: Justin Henck <henck@google.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 19:23:56 +0000
Message-ID: <CAN-AkJuNUuM85ie+pgqTuQD9SgZ-PpV7hj6K-7oUhrSvGiOhaw@mail.gmail.com>
To: rhewitt@akamai.com
Cc: ek@google.com, Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>, doh@ietf.org, mbishop@evequefou.be
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="94eb2c19e7660467680564b85bf0"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/doh/nL5R5l6DPcBOEQm1gFAbSW41r1I>
Subject: Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03
X-BeenThere: doh@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22
Precedence: list
List-Id: DNS Over HTTPS <doh.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/doh>, <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/doh/>
List-Post: <mailto:doh@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh>, <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2018 19:24:12 -0000

>
> I am more in favor of a set of simple requirements, so simple client and
> server implementation can exist and provide the basics of DOH
> functionality.
> Optionally, discovery can be used to be more fancy and provide
> extensibility, but at the core of it, I would expect that knowing a domain
> and optionally an IP (to avoid the chicken and egg issue of being able to
> resolve the DOH server IP ) should be enough to be able to access DNS over
> HTTPS using GET at a well known endpoint.


I may be misunderstanding, but doesn't this imply either a fixed path, or a
discoverable path via another (e.g. .well-known/dns)?


On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 2:22 PM Hewitt, Rory <rhewitt@akamai.com>; wrote:

> Additionally, using /.well-known/ would allow for URI Template discovery,
> if required - client retrieves URI Template from e.g.
> /.well-known/doh.template and then uses that to build DNS request URI.
>
>
>
> See https://github.com/dohwg/draft-ietf-doh-dns-over-https/issues/74 for
> @mnot's suggestion.
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *Rory Hewitt*
>
> Senior Solutions Architect
>
> Global Services & Support
>
> Akamai Technologies
>
> Tel: (408) 650-0035
>
>
>
> *From:* Justin Henck [mailto:henck@google.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, February 8, 2018 11:17 AM
> *To:* ek@google.com
> *Cc:* Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>;; doh@ietf.org; mbishop@evequefou.be
> *Subject:* Re: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03
>
>
>
> That would work for the situation I specified, but I think that a
> .well-known pointer provides the additional benefit of serving more
> technical users with an advanced configuration. (It is also in-line with
> the intended use of .well-known as I understand RFC 5785.)
>
>
>
> Specifically, if an implementer creates an advanced setting whereby you
> can configure a DOH server with both a domain and an IP (to eliminate the
> need for bootstrapping) then you have made the user's life easier. And,
> although a URI is not supposed to change, a .well-known/dns pointer
> requirement would ensure that capricious servers don't break
> manually-configured clients.
>
>
>
>
> *Justin Henck*
> Product Manager
>
> 212-565-9811
>
> google.com/jigsaw
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__google.com_jigsaw&d=DwMFaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=h4goE6gK_ZaRrvwi4Hglaq0NyaBCb3I3XALyazxKb6w&m=KrH6cYm-gcGpqevreKzpdpsMm-hErKTCNEthg2TBsTU&s=N-RLQbYhldj1naDovU3jQQtWdiNb5pbKuxXJJ3p663Y&e=>
>
>
>
> PGP: EA8E 8C27 2D75 974D B357 482B 1039 9F2D 869A 117B
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:59 PM Erik Kline <ek@google.com>; wrote:
>
> Sounds like you might want a (TXT) record at the zone cut level?
>
> On 8 February 2018 at 10:55, Justin Henck <henck@google.com>; wrote:
> > I would like to see a way for clients to discover a DNS server hosted on
> a
> > certain domain.  Perhaps a .well-known/dns path that contains a relative
> > pointer and other metadata.  I'm imagining a use case whereby the user
> could
> > choose to rely upon an organization that they find trustworthy which is
> > offering DNS, without needing to do a significant amount of discovery
> (e.g.
> > "maybe known.tld has a DNS server?").  You could of course also have an
> > absolute pointer, but then you have to account for the situation whereby
> > known.tld might delegate to unknown.tld.
> >
> > Justin Henck
> > Google
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:21 PM Ben Schwartz <bemasc@google.com>; wrote:
> >>
> >> On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 1:11 PM, Mike Bishop <mbishop@evequefou.be>;
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I’m inclined to think this is a positive change.  We’re trying to do
> >>> something better than the current world of “trust the local DNS server
> >>> because unauthenticated DHCP says so”, and promiscuous trust just
> because a
> >>> server claims it support DOH via a .well-known endpoint isn’t really
> any
> >>> better.
> >>
> >>
> >> To be clear, the draft never proposed promiscuous trust, which would
> >> indeed be highly problematic.  However, draft-03 does include additional
> >> language clarifying this point.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> The client should know the hostname(s) of the DOH server(s) it wants to
> >>> use
> >>
> >>
> >> In draft-03, "knowing the hostname" is not sufficient, because there is
> no
> >> default path for DOH.  This is the change on which I am seeking input.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> , and it should authenticate the DOH server against that hostname.
> >>
> >>
> >> Yes, definitely.  (I believe the draft is clear on this point, but feel
> >> free to suggest improvements.)
> >>
> >>>
> >>>   If a server hosts content and also wants to also serve DOH, there are
> >>> ways to present a hostname that covers both names (or present two
> >>> certificates) on an HTTP connection.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: Doh [mailto:doh-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ben Schwartz
> >>> Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 10:05 AM
> >>> To: doh@ietf.org
> >>> Subject: [Doh] Seeking input on draft-03
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Hi all,
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> The authors of draft-ietf-doh-dns-over-https have been making good
> >>> progress, and a draft-03 is now ready with several changes and
> >>> clarifications.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> One important difference is that draft-03 no longer proposes a
> >>> ".well-known" entry.  In draft-02 and prior, clients could check for
> the
> >>> presence of a DOH service at the default path, given only the domain
> name of
> >>> a server.  In draft-03, there is no default path, so clients must be
> >>> configured with the full URL of the DOH endpoint.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Is this change compatible with your use cases?  Would this alter the
> way
> >>> users interact with your systems?  How do you think DOH client
> configuration
> >>> should work?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Please respond with your thoughts,
> >>>
> >>> Ben Schwartz
> >>
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Doh mailing list
> >> Doh@ietf.org
> >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_doh&d=DwMFaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=h4goE6gK_ZaRrvwi4Hglaq0NyaBCb3I3XALyazxKb6w&m=KrH6cYm-gcGpqevreKzpdpsMm-hErKTCNEthg2TBsTU&s=T69zw0O8NFcgM07c8aK0knaf9RoDeSYGFdN_MXSy4a4&e=>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Doh mailing list
> > Doh@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh
> <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_doh&d=DwMFaQ&c=96ZbZZcaMF4w0F4jpN6LZg&r=h4goE6gK_ZaRrvwi4Hglaq0NyaBCb3I3XALyazxKb6w&m=KrH6cYm-gcGpqevreKzpdpsMm-hErKTCNEthg2TBsTU&s=T69zw0O8NFcgM07c8aK0knaf9RoDeSYGFdN_MXSy4a4&e=>
> >
>
>