Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients

Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie> Tue, 12 March 2019 00:00 UTC

Return-Path: <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
X-Original-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36C8131297; Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:00:23 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -4.301
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cs.tcd.ie
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t3s10c7QoXz7; Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:00:20 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [134.226.56.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 86594131263; Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:00:19 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE628BE6F; Tue, 12 Mar 2019 00:00:16 +0000 (GMT)
X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at scss.tcd.ie
Received: from mercury.scss.tcd.ie ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mercury.scss.tcd.ie [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8A2k_BcIoX5i; Tue, 12 Mar 2019 00:00:15 +0000 (GMT)
Received: from [10.244.2.138] (95-45-153-252-dynamic.agg2.phb.bdt-fng.eircom.net [95.45.153.252]) by mercury.scss.tcd.ie (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id EE53FBE64; Tue, 12 Mar 2019 00:00:14 +0000 (GMT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cs.tcd.ie; s=mail; t=1552348815; bh=iJgkRKptNHacyfU1AsAa9p+q+yiRcIQQ3JJzqnwtrKs=; h=To:Cc:References:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ZZFqwIxb3I3jxCYhMrIxS5aW8LH6gRYubG1aN6rOQzECkw9UG5ErCSoPcwSjZV5Mt lt2hmMTbC+/WLdtxkWDEc7gR6JfO599f0G4+QClhaq5/6SCEHaI1TtypJ1KJgLCEzo B4C3BgWSNPwV9OGhnfEyEPlb/XVpKY+zCA95FTGM=
To: Paul Vixie <paul@redbarn.org>, "doh@ietf.org" <doh@ietf.org>
Cc: nalini elkins <nalini.elkins@e-dco.com>, "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@mcafee.com>, "dnsop@ietf.org" <dnsop@ietf.org>, "Ackermann, Michael" <mackermann@bcbsm.com>, Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>, "dns-privacy@ietf.org" <dns-privacy@ietf.org>, Vittorio Bertola <vittorio.bertola=40open-xchange.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
References: <1700920918.12557.1552229700654@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <7667c4d7-2e78-0a27-84af-cf1c00fd4897@cs.tcd.ie> <1991054337.12802.1552259263075@appsuite.open-xchange.com> <eea64b30-aad0-a030-5360-1b1484f1d0e3@huitema.net> <CAPsNn2WhjHSEHJUEL8GB6X0d24fkajgPnY4YgkOQbXjyxb5q8Q@mail.gmail.com> <e62efaf3-4a35-4a52-5ed4-dee2e7fafe72@huitema.net> <69f989ba-0939-b917-b586-9e3af3fb8b74@redbarn.org> <CAPsNn2XNCzgAdfJtxBVboAe+d6sbCiV2fZv9185wm+HN+3zRdg@mail.gmail.com> <BYAPR16MB279065EE519680E7FC9A637CEA480@BYAPR16MB2790.namprd16.prod.outlook.com> <CAPsNn2Up1AtJJCdmu_9NC4jfzc-8dtE+QjUzRxMBUwaN44gvOg@mail.gmail.com> <76386691-c1aa-c48a-9b0d-67eb36a08a4f@redbarn.org> <CAPsNn2VAgLDW++kb=Csfczp4oydqa4sY-dKWw7P7qTwj=MfxdQ@mail.gmail.com>
From: Stephen Farrell <stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie>
Openpgp: id=5BB5A6EA5765D2C5863CAE275AB2FAF17B172BEA; url=
Autocrypt: addr=stephen.farrell@cs.tcd.ie; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQINBFo9UDIBEADUH4ZPcUnX5WWRWO4kEkHea5Y5eEvZjSwe/YA+G0nrTuOU9nemCP5PMvmh 5Cg8gBTyWyN4Z2+O25p9Tja5zUb+vPMWYvOtokRrp46yhFZOmiS5b6kTq0IqYzsEv5HI58S+ QtaFq978CRa4xH9Gi9u4yzUmT03QNIGDXE37honcAM4MOEtEgvw4fVhVWJuyy3w//0F2tzKr EMjmL5VGuD/Q9+G/7abuXiYNNd9ZFjv4625AUWwy+pAh4EKzS1FE7BOZp9daMu9MUQmDqtZU bUv0Q+DnQAB/4tNncejJPz0p2z3MWCp5iSwHiQvytYgatMp34a50l6CWqa13n6vY8VcPlIqO Vz+7L+WiVfxLbeVqBwV+4uL9to9zLF9IyUvl94lCxpscR2kgRgpM6A5LylRDkR6E0oudFnJg b097ZaNyuY1ETghVB5Uir1GCYChs8NUNumTHXiOkuzk+Gs4DAHx/a78YxBolKHi+esLH8r2k 4LyM2lp5FmBKjG7cGcpBGmWavACYEa7rwAadg4uBx9SHMV5i33vDXQUZcmW0vslQ2Is02NMK 7uB7E7HlVE1IM1zNkVTYYGkKreU8DVQu8qNOtPVE/CdaCJ/pbXoYeHz2B1Nvbl9tlyWxn5Xi HzFPJleXc0ksb9SkJokAfwTSZzTxeQPER8la5lsEEPbU/cDTcwARAQABtDJTdGVwaGVuIEZh cnJlbGwgKDIwMTcpIDxzdGVwaGVuLmZhcnJlbGxAY3MudGNkLmllPokCQAQTAQgAKgIbAwUJ CZQmAAULCQgHAgYVCAkKCwIEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCWj6jdwIZAQAKCRBasvrxexcr6o7QD/9m x9DPJetmW794RXmNTrbTJ44zc/tJbcLdRBh0KBn9OW/EaAqjDmgNJeCMyJTKr1ywaps8HGUN hLEVkc14NUpgi4/Zkrbi3DmTp25OHj6wXBS5qVMyVynTMEIjOfeFFyxG+48od+Xn7qg6LT7G rHeNf+z/r0v9+8eZ1Ip63kshQDGhhpmRMKu4Ws9ZvTW2ACXkkTFaSGYJj3yIP4R6IgwBYGMz DXFX6nS4LA1s3pcPNxOgrvCyb60AiJZTLcOk/rRrpZtXB1XQc23ZZmrlTkl2HaThL6w3YKdi Ti1NbuMeOxZqtXcUshII45sANm4HuWNTiRh93Bn5bN6ddjgsaXEZBKUBuUaPBl7gQiQJcAlS 3MmGgVS4ZoX8+VaPGpXdQVFyBMRFlOKOC5XJESt7wY0RE2C8PFm+5eywSO/P1fkl9whkMgml 3OEuIQiP2ehRt/HVLMHkoM9CPQ7t6UwdrXrvX+vBZykav8x9U9M6KTgfsXytxUl6Vx5lPMLi 2/Jrsz6Mzh/IVZa3xjhq1OLFSI/tT2ji4FkJDQbO+yYUDhcuqfakDmtWLMxecZsY6O58A/95 8Qni6Xeq+Nh7zJ7wNcQOMoDGj+24di2TX1cKLzdDMWFaWzlNP5dB5VMwS9Wqj1Z6TzKjGjru q8soqohwb2CK9B3wzFg0Bs1iBI+2RuFnxLkCDQRaPVAyARAA+g3R0HzGr/Dl34Y07XqGqzq5 SU0nXIu9u8Ynsxj7gR5qb3HgUWYEWrHW2jHOByXnvkffucf5yzwrsvw8Q8iI8CFHiTYHPpey 4yPVn6R0w/FOMcY70eTIu/k6EEFDlDbs09DtKcrsT9bmN0XoRxITlXwWTufYqUnmS+YkAuk+ TLCtUin7OdaS2uU6Ata3PLQSeM2ZsUQMmYmHPwB9rmf+q2I005AJ9Q1SPQ2KNg/8xOGxo13S VuaSqYRQdpV93RuCOzg4vuXtR+gP0KQrus/P2ZCEPvU9cXF/2MIhXgOz207lv3iE2zGyNXld /n8spvWk+0bH5Zqd9Wcba/rGcBhmX9NKKDARZqjkv/zVEP1X97w1HsNYeUFNcg2lk9zQKb4v l1jx/Uz8ukzH2QNhU4R39dbF/4AwWuSVkGW6bTxHJqGs6YimbfdQqxTzmqFwz3JP0OtXX5q/ 6D4pHwcmJwEiDNzsBLl6skPSQ0Xyq3pua/qAP8MVm+YxCxJQITqZ8qjDLzoe7s9X6FLLC/DA L9kxl5saVSfDbuI3usH/emdtn0NA9/M7nfgih92zD92sl1yQXHT6BDa8xW1j+RU4P+E0wyd7 zgB2UeYgrp2IIcfG+xX2uFG5MJQ/nYfBoiALb0+dQHNHDtFnNGY3Oe8z1M9c5aDG3/s29QbJ +w7hEKKo9YMAEQEAAYkCJQQYAQgADwUCWj1QMgIbDAUJCZQmAAAKCRBasvrxexcr6qwvD/9b Rek3kfN8Q+jGrKl8qwY8HC5s4mhdDJZI/JP2FImf5J2+d5/e8UJ4fcsT79E0/FqX3Z9wZr6h sofPqLh1/YzDsYkZDHTYSGrlWGP/I5kXwUmFnBZHzM3WGrL3S7ZmCYMdudhykxXXjq7M6Do1 oxM8JofrXGtwBTLv5wfvvygJouVCVe87Ge7mCeY5vey1eUi4zSSF1zPpR6gg64w2g4TXM5qt SwkZVOv1g475LsGlYWRuJV8TA67yp1zJI7HkNqCo8KyHX0DPOh9c+Sd9ZX4aqKfqH9HIpnCL AYEgj7vofeix7gM3kQQmwynqq32bQGQBrKJEYp2vfeO30VsVx4dzuuiC5lyjUccVmw5D72J0 FlGrfEm0kw6D1qwyBg0SAMqamKN6XDdjhNAtXIaoA2UMZK/vZGGUKbqTgDdk0fnzOyb2zvXK CiPFKqIPAqKaDHg0JHdGI3KpQdRNLLzgx083EqEc6IAwWA6jSz+6lZDV6XDgF0lYqAYIkg3+ 6OUXUv6plMlwSHquiOc/MQXHfgUP5//Ra5JuiuyCj954FD+MBKIj8eWROfnzyEnBplVHGSDI ZLzL3pvV14dcsoajdeIH45i8DxnVm64BvEFHtLNlnliMrLOrk4shfmWyUqNlzilXN2BTFVFH 4MrnagFdcFnWYp1JPh96ZKjiqBwMv/H0kw==
Message-ID: <b405fbdd-dc36-5df1-b5bc-9ff2dcb149a2@cs.tcd.ie>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 00:00:13 +0000
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:60.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/60.5.1
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <CAPsNn2VAgLDW++kb=Csfczp4oydqa4sY-dKWw7P7qTwj=MfxdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="rXW8fFgh4OP6TDlwu0GRy0bpQAdlPdclk"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/doh/qpYWKyrbDi32SGQrj0vsAnryDVw>
Subject: Re: [Doh] [dns-privacy] [DNSOP] New: draft-bertola-bcp-doh-clients
X-BeenThere: doh@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: DNS Over HTTPS <doh.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/doh>, <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/doh/>
List-Post: <mailto:doh@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh>, <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 00:00:29 -0000

(This distribution list is too scattered and diverse. Be
great if some AD or someone just picked one list for this.
In the meantime...)

On 11/03/2019 20:43, nalini elkins wrote:
>  impact assessment that certain changes such as
> DoH and TLS1.3 will have on enterprises,

TLS1.3 will, I expect, noticeably improve security for an awful
lot of enterprises in time.

As for DoH, I wonder has anyone done studies on how split-horizon
names and access patterns leak today?

I don't recall having read that kind of study. I can imagine
many ways in which that kind of stuff would leak. I'd be very
surprised if it never happens. I don't know how often it does.

For names, leaking once is kinda fatal. For access patterns,
I guess one leak exposes an IP address that's interested in a
name (e.g. secret-project.example.com) but more would be
needed for broader access patterns to be exposed to "foreign"
recursives and/or in-band networks.

ISTM that it is quite possible that enterprises that deploy their
own DoH services could potentially reduce such leakage and gain
overall. (I'm assuming here that sensible browser-makers will
end up providing something that works for browsers running in
networks with split-horizon setups before those browsers turn
on DoH as a default at scale.)

Cheers,
S.