[Doh] DoH discovery security goals
nusenu <nusenu-lists@riseup.net> Tue, 19 March 2019 07:13 UTC
Return-Path: <nusenu-lists@riseup.net>
X-Original-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: doh@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B0C621274A1
for <doh@ietfa.amsl.com>; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:13:46 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.7
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5
tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1,
DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001,
URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key)
header.d=riseup.net
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44])
by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024)
with ESMTP id uf1UM_kWHD2s for <doh@ietfa.amsl.com>;
Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx1.riseup.net (mx1.riseup.net [198.252.153.129])
(using TLSv1.2 with cipher ADH-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits))
(No client certificate requested)
by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77D551240D3
for <doh@ietf.org>; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from capuchin.riseup.net (capuchin-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.176])
(using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits))
(Client CN "*.riseup.net",
Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK))
by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 877AD1A0C4E
for <doh@ietf.org>; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:13:43 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak;
t=1552979623; bh=SOnYLXum8O39A7zT++iJhumHhgQe8fCVWPhaBi4AM64=;
h=References:To:From:Subject:Date:In-Reply-To:From;
b=JZseV25OzKKa3MCjudKoauz/zK1Y5THXDgNaYGeDxwqayLWlRxxdDv2gmwa4fWyOi
hgIbYLFiNwkRkVpAvZm0JzY2ubRTqz3p9TnM818adhVXKybfC2Jc2tcA6uQ57yCrQO
7L/NTMrkfMSLLdnOHJAK08REQCF7IX4LEhZyPnm0=
X-Riseup-User-ID: F41F645C1240A31AF82BAEA7A2779F6380E39AA88B848B1E70664C8F45BD8CDD
Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by capuchin.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5B28B1207E5
for <doh@ietf.org>; Tue, 19 Mar 2019 00:13:41 -0700 (PDT)
References: <CAHbrMsCNyeabhk0sVexOHVedVkgG2dvV9T8wWL++om5juAUvEw@mail.gmail.com>
<b3c252eb-f8de-42f7-bedd-ef23375b5325@www.fastmail.com>
<4de48a75-955d-89e3-7da3-4a1876edc53a@riseup.net>
<bc485de8-0fa9-44a9-96ff-2a694e45f7b3@www.fastmail.com>
<72a7be2c-918a-c2ab-0df8-dab6253532e5@riseup.net>
<CAHbrMsCJz8s=B9pvvKmXhe+iGUUDPhW067JabyLnXsJNMUJT8w@mail.gmail.com>
<dbd3b19e-69c6-160d-4e43-be5a947cd516@riseup.net>
<4EE8D24D-1CC4-4E57-87B2-BEC9DC465E12@icann.org>
To: DoH WG <doh@ietf.org>
From: nusenu <nusenu-lists@riseup.net>
Openpgp: preference=signencrypt
Autocrypt: addr=nusenu-lists@riseup.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=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Message-ID: <328e04f2-884d-7520-3293-b20ca854ad5b@riseup.net>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 07:13:00 +0000
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <4EE8D24D-1CC4-4E57-87B2-BEC9DC465E12@icann.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512;
protocol="application/pgp-signature";
boundary="gzpMBdXwDKF3xz9qAPhCCH5NcdtpxRaYV"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/doh/wRT69s10MLby691zKn_6AgE7T14>
Subject: [Doh] DoH discovery security goals
X-BeenThere: doh@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: DNS Over HTTPS <doh.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/doh>,
<mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/doh/>
List-Post: <mailto:doh@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/doh>,
<mailto:doh-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 07:13:47 -0000
> If you want to update RFC 7858, that's great, but this would all be > work for the DPRIVE WG, which is the one that standardized DoT. Yes I'm aware, I just replied to this question in Ben's email since he asked here. The rest of the email was related to the current Resolver-Associated DoH draft: >> An active adversary "in the middle" can fully substitute itself for a Do53 >> resolver without alerting the user. Do you see an achievable defense >> against downgrade attacks, or is this not part of your threat model? > > Good point, lets define a threat model first: > > Consider an adversary that has the following capabilities: > > - can manipulate and read any network traffic from the user (including DHCP) > > - the adversary's capabilities are limited to some networks > (i.e. public wifis) but he has no global capabilities > > - the attacker can _not_ issue trusted certificates for arbitrary IP addresses > - the adversary has _no_ access to the client system > > security goals: > if the victim uses DHCP for Do53 discovery: > - prevent attacks that impact the victim's DoH server URI > beyond the visit in an adversary-controlled network (i.e. public wifis) > > if the client is configured to use a static Do53 server (no DHCP for DNS server discovery used): > - prevent the adversary from feeding the victim with his DoH URI > - prevent a silent downgrade attack that makes the victim believe > a previously discovered DoH server does no longer speak DoH (to force the victim to plain Do53) > > As outlined in [1] I believe these goals are currently not met yet and an adversary can feed a victim > his DoH server URI even beyond the victim's visit in the adversary controlled network. > It would be great if we could improve this (I think we can). -- https://twitter.com/nusenu_ https://mastodon.social/@nusenu
- [Doh] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Reviewing Resolver-Associate… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Reviewing Resolver-Associate… Winfield, Alister
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Reviewing Resolver-Associate… Loganaden Velvindron
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Reviewing Resolver-Associate… Winfield, Alister
- [Doh] IP address certificates Paul Hoffman
- [Doh] Use of TXT records Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] Use of TXT records Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH Hewitt, Rory
- Re: [Doh] Use of TXT records Hewitt, Rory
- Re: [Doh] Use of TXT records Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] Use of TXT records Hewitt, Rory
- Re: [Doh] [EXTERNAL] Reviewing Resolver-Associate… Adam Roach
- Re: [Doh] Use of TXT records Eliot Lear
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Use of TXT records Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH nusenu
- Re: [Doh] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH nusenu
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH Paul Hoffman
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH nusenu
- Re: [Doh] IP address certificates Martin Thomson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] IP address certificates Paul Hoffman
- [Doh] Talking to my resolver Martin Thomson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] IP address certificates Martin Thomson
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH Martin J. Dürst
- Re: [Doh] Talking to my resolver nusenu
- Re: [Doh] Talking to my resolver Martin Thomson
- Re: [Doh] Talking to my resolver Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH Hewitt, Rory
- Re: [Doh] Talking to my resolver nusenu
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH nusenu
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH Hewitt, Rory
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH Mark Nottingham
- Re: [Doh] Talking to my resolver Ben Schwartz
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH Hewitt, Rory
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] Reviewing Resolver-Associated DOH Adam Roach
- Re: [Doh] security goals nusenu
- Re: [Doh] [Ext] security goals Paul Hoffman
- [Doh] DoH discovery security goals nusenu