Re: [Dots] WGLC for draft-dots-use-cases-19

"Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com> Tue, 06 August 2019 09:29 UTC

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From: "Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy" <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, "Valery Smyslov" <valery@smyslov.net>, "dots@ietf.org" <dots@ietf.org>
CC: "Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)" <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: [Dots] WGLC for draft-dots-use-cases-19
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Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2019 09:29:06 +0000
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/gn3dk_F6O5bWAnfarCX5krtubog>
Subject: Re: [Dots] WGLC for draft-dots-use-cases-19
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>;
> Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 2:50 PM
> To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>;; Valery Smyslov
> <valery@smyslov.net>;; dots@ietf.org
> Cc: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)
> <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>;
> Subject: RE: [Dots] WGLC for draft-dots-use-cases-19
> 
> This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click links or
> open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is
> safe.
> 
> Re-,
> 
> Please see inline.
> 
> Cheers,
> Med
> 
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com]
> > Envoyé : mardi 6 août 2019 11:15
> > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; Valery Smyslov; dots@ietf.org Cc :
> > Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) Objet : RE: [Dots]
> > WGLC for draft-dots-use-cases-19
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>;
> > > Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 2:00 PM
> > > To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > > <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>;; Valery Smyslov
> > > <valery@smyslov.net>;; dots@ietf.org
> > > Cc: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)
> > > <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>;
> > > Subject: RE: [Dots] WGLC for draft-dots-use-cases-19
> > >
> > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click
> > links or
> > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
> > > content is safe.
> > >
> > > Re-,
> > >
> > > Please see inline.
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Med
> > >
> > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > De : Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > > > [mailto:TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com]
> > > > Envoyé : mardi 6 août 2019 10:14
> > > > À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN; Valery Smyslov; dots@ietf.org Cc :
> > > > Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept) Objet : RE:
> > > > [Dots] WGLC for draft-dots-use-cases-19
> > > >
> > > > Hi Med,
> > > >
> > > > No, the orchestrator is not ignoring the mitigation hints.
> > >
> > > [Med] Why? The text is clear the orchestrator acts as DOTS server.
> > > As
> > such, it
> > > can ignore/accept hints.
> > >
> > >  It is sending
> > > > filtering rules to block or rate-limit traffic to routers (last
> > > > but one line in the new paragraph).
> > >
> > > [Med] Yes. That filtering rule is that would be applied by the DMS
> > > if it
> > has
> > > sufficient resources.
> > >
> > >  The adverse impact is legitimate users whose
> > > > IP addresses were spoofed
> > > > cannot access the services of the target server.
> > >
> > > [Med] This is a check at the DMS side. This check applies
> > > independently
> > of **
> > > where ** the filters are applied. This is not specific to this NEW text.
> >
> > If the orchestrator is sending filtering rules to block traffic,
> > checks are required to ensure spoofed IP address are not conveyed by the
> DMS.
> 
> [Med] Yes, but the current text describes the case where the DMS supplies
> "its blocked traffic information":
> 
>   the DDoS mitigation system can send mitigation requests
>   with additional hints such as its blocked traffic information to the
>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>   orchestrator.
> 
> So, the DMS has already done that check.

The blocked traffic information will include attack traffic from both spoofed and attacker IP addresses.

> 
>  If
> > the orchestrator delegates the mitigation to a separate domain
> > (recursive signaling), the attack information provided by DMS can
> > include spoofed IP addresses (so the new mitigator in the separate
> > domain learns the attack traffic is coming from spoofed IP addresses).
> 
> [Med] This is not specific to this case, but applies each time there is recursive
> signaling.

My comment is to using the attack information of spoofed IP addresses to filter traffic would penalize legitimate users, and the text is not clear me. I suggest adding a line for clarity, DMS may supply both spoofed and attacker IP addresses in the attack information to the orchestrator. The orchestrator will only use the non-spoofed IP addresses to enforce filtering rules on routers.

-Tiru

> 
> >
> > -Tiru
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > -Tiru
> > > >
> > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > From: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com
> > > > > <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>;
> > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 12:50 PM
> > > > > To: Konda, Tirumaleswar Reddy
> > > > > <TirumaleswarReddy_Konda@McAfee.com>;; Valery Smyslov
> > > > > <valery@smyslov.net>;; dots@ietf.org
> > > > > Cc: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)
> > > > > <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>;
> > > > > Subject: RE: [Dots] WGLC for draft-dots-use-cases-19
> > > > >
> > > > > This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
> > > > > click
> > > > links or
> > > > > open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the
> > > > > content is safe.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi Tiru,
> > > > >
> > > > > The NEW text indicates the following:
> > > > >
> > > > > ==
> > > > >    In addition to the above DDoS Orchestration, the selected DDoS
> > > > >    mitigation systems can return back a mitigation request to the
> > > > >    orchestrator as an offloading.
> > > > >                      ^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > > >    ....
> > > > >    the DDoS mitigation system can send mitigation requests
> > > > >    with additional hints such as its blocked traffic information
> > > > > to
> > the
> > > > >                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > > > >    orchestrator.
> > > > > ==
> > > > >
> > > > > Which means that the DMS is blocking that traffic based on "some"
> > > > > information. That same information is passed to an orchestrator
> > > > > so that
> > > > it can
> > > > > filter the traffic. What changes is ** how/where ** filters are
> > > > installed.
> > > > >
> > > > > Like the interface with a mitigator, the interface between the
> > > > controller and
> > > > > underlying routers is out of scope.
> > > > >
> > > > > From a DOTS perspective, the information supplied by the DMS to
> > > > > an Orchestrator is considered as "additional hints" which is
> > > > > adhering to
> > > > RFC8612:
> > > > >
> > > > > ==
> > > > >    GEN-004  Mitigation Hinting: DOTS clients may have access to
> > attack
> > > > >       details that can be used to inform mitigation techniques.
> > Example
> > > > >       attack details might include locally collected
> > > > > fingerprints
> > for an
> > > > >       on-going attack, or anticipated or active attack focal points
> > > > >       based on other threat intelligence.  DOTS clients MAY send
> > > > >       mitigation hints derived from attack details to DOTS
> > > > > servers,
> > with
> > > > >       the full understanding that the DOTS server MAY ignore
> > mitigation
> > > > >       hints.
> > > > > ==
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think there are new security considerations induced by
> > > > > the NEW
> > > > text.
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > Med
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----Message d'origine-----
> > > > > > De : Dots [mailto:dots-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Konda,
> > > > > > Tirumaleswar Reddy Envoyé : mardi 6 août 2019 08:52 À : Valery
> > > > > > Smyslov; dots@ietf.org Cc : Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard
> > > > > > & Patent
> > > > > > Dept) Objet : Re: [Dots] WGLC for draft-dots-use-cases-19
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The security implications of the new use case need to be
> > > > > > discussed in the draft, please see
> > > > > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/dots/tb-
> > > > > > 1ojJ6TmSmRUci6JoUeD-gB1Y
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Cheers,
> > > > > > -Tiru
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > > > > From: Dots <dots-bounces@ietf.org>; On Behalf Of Valery
> > > > > > > Smyslov
> > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 6, 2019 11:56 AM
> > > > > > > To: dots@ietf.org
> > > > > > > Cc: Xialiang (Frank, Network Standard & Patent Dept)
> > > > > > > <frank.xialiang@huawei.com>;
> > > > > > > Subject: [Dots] WGLC for draft-dots-use-cases-19
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > this message starts a short WGLC for
> > > > > > > draft-ietf-dots-use-cases-19 to
> > > > > > confirm
> > > > > > > the WG consensus regarding the latest addition of a new use
> > > > > > > case to the draft.
> > > > > > > The WGLS will last one week and will end on Tuesday, 13 August.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > > > Frank & Valery.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > > Dots mailing list
> > > > > > > Dots@ietf.org
> > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots
> > > > > >
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Dots mailing list
> > > > > > Dots@ietf.org
> > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dots