Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discussions on here?
Michael Hammer <michael.hammer@yaanatech.com> Sat, 25 January 2014 21:17 UTC
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From: Michael Hammer <michael.hammer@yaanatech.com>
To: "paul.hoffman@vpnc.org" <paul.hoffman@vpnc.org>
Thread-Topic: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discussions on here?
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Date: Sat, 25 Jan 2014 21:17:00 +0000
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References: <52DD996F.3040708@cs.tcd.ie> <CAF4+nEHEWaSr3HMuGtQ=vQzuuhkTo2uNpedUTNgmT5NsWRsTfA@mail.gmail.com> <30316745-8091-46AD-95A1-407757489FF9@vpnc.org> <1737731959.20140122185149@gmail.com> <03f201cf17ee$e34ccbf0$a9e663d0$@hosed.org> <15541579.20140123214020@gmail.com> <00C069FD01E0324C9FFCADF539701DB3BBF18E51@sc9-ex2k10mb1.corp.yaanatech.com> <204592464.20140123233807@gmail.com> <00C069FD01E0324C9FFCADF539701DB3BBF18FD6@sc9-ex2k10mb1.corp.yaanatech.com> <1825449796.20140124180225@gmail.com> <00C069FD01E0324C9FFCADF539701DB3BBF1BE0E@sc9-ex2k10mb1.corp.yaanatech.com> <2C723E08-FB16-4D03-9371-94D164111E5B@vpnc.org>
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Subject: Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discussions on here?
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I am not sure if we are talking past each other. Using terms from your example, I have one input (trying to map to what you say) that is message A. I have another input, call it key B. The output of the "secure algorithm" is C. C will be known by adversary M. The question is whether B is sufficiently random that C cannot guess it. Also, that M cannot easily discover A knowing C. The strength of the algorithm is part of the assurance. The strength of the key is the other part. Weak key B does not adequately protect message A. Now, being random does not guarantee that the key B is not weak, just not easily deduced by M. But, if B is generated from inputs B1 and B2 in such a way that it tends to reduce the randomness (worse case results in very small subset of keys B), then M can brute force B to reveal A. One of the papers cited earlier pointed out how a complex algorithm actually ended up converging on a small number of values. I would hope to avoid repeating that mistake. Michael Hammer Principal Engineer michael.hammer@yaanatech.com Mobile: +1 408-202-9291 500 Yosemite Drive Suite 120 Milpitas, CA 95035 USA -----Original Message----- From: Paul Hoffman [mailto:paul.hoffman@vpnc.org] Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2014 11:35 AM To: Michael Hammer Cc: dsfjdssdfsd@ietf.org Subject: Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discussions on here? On Jan 25, 2014, at 8:16 AM, Michael Hammer <michael.hammer@yaanatech.com> wrote: > So, if you mix a non-random input with a random input, using a > deterministic algorithm, the output will be more random? > That doesn't seem right to me. That's because it is not right for many reasons. To start, you haven't defined "non-random" and "more random". A better description: Value A has X bits that cannot be known to adversary M. Value B has Y bits that cannot be known to M. Securely mixing A and B into a value C whose length is greater than or equal to (X + Y) will result in C having (X + Y) bits that cannot be known by M. If C's length is less than (A + B), every bit in C cannot be known by M. In your question above, the fact that B might be 0 is irrelevant to the calculation. --Paul Hoffman
- [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discussions… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Dan Harkins
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Dan Harkins
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Krisztián Pintér
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Donald Eastlake
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Dan Harkins
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Dan Harkins
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Dan Harkins
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Francis Dupont
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Francis Dupont
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Dan Harkins
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… ietf
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Francis Dupont
- [dsfjdssdfsd] evaluating stuff (was: Re: Any plan… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] evaluating stuff (was: Re: Any … ietf
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] evaluating stuff (was: Re: Any … Jon Green
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] evaluating stuff (was: Re: Any … Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Krisztián Pintér
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Michael Hammer
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Krisztián Pintér
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Michael Hammer
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Henderickx, Wim (Wim)
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Krisztián Pintér
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Dan Harkins
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Michael Hammer
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Paul Hoffman
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Michael Hammer
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Krisztián Pintér
- Re: [dsfjdssdfsd] Any plans for drafts or discuss… Paul Hoffman