Re: [dtn] AD review of draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-12

["Taylor, Rick" <[e-mail]>]

I found my reference:  subjectAltNames may contain IP addresses, it doesn't help the discussion, but it was bothering me.

Rick

-----Original Message-----
From: dtn [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Magnus Westerlund
Sent: 24 September 2019 10:18
To: [e-mail]; magnus.westerlund=[e-mail]; [e-mail]; [e-mail]; Taylor, Rick
Subject: Re: [dtn] AD review of draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-12

On Mon, 2019-09-23 at 13:12 +0000, Brian Sipos wrote:
> Rick,
> According to RFC 6066:
> > Literal IPv4 and IPv6 addresses are not permitted in "HostName".
> 
> so no raw addresses allowed.
> 
> If this seems like a niche enough use case then I'm fine with dropping 
> these explicit requirements. Not having them in still allows the use 
> of SNI (or any other TLS extension) it just makes it farther away from a standard practice.
> SNI enables "virtual host" type configurations where a single TCPCL 
> passive node can function as CL for multiple BP nodes depending on the 
> host name used to connect to it.

When it comes to literal IP addresses their being forbidden is likely due to that they represent a massive risk in any co-location of hosts on a single IP address. I think that risk do exists also for the DTN use case as multiple EID and thus associated nodes can be co-located, even ones that are independent from each other. 

Cheers

Magnus


> 
> From: Taylor, Rick <[e-mail]>
> Sent: Friday, September 20, 2019 05:21
> To: Brian Sipos <[e-mail]>; Magnus Westerlund < 
> [e-mail]>; [e-mail] <[e-mail]>; 
> magnus.westerlund=[e-mail] < 
> magnus.westerlund=[e-mail]>;
> [e-mail] <[e-mail]>
> Subject: RE: [dtn] AD review of draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-12
>  
> Hi Brian,
>  
> I think you may have just clarified the issue for me, and I agree.
>  
> Given this is a TCP convergence layer, the SNI should assert identity 
> at the TCP/TLS/DNS layer, irrelevant of what the DTN layers above are 
> doing.  As a sysadmin, I want to know that when my TCP-CL connects to 
> ‘dtn.airbus.com’, it can validate a cert with an SNI of ‘dtn.airbus.com’, not some DTN EID.
>  
> Am I right in thinking that an SNI can also be a dotted IP address, or 
> am I misremembering X509?
>  
> Cheers,
>  
> Rick Taylor
> Product Design Authority, Mobile IP Node Principal Engineer (eXpert), 
> Mobile Communications Airbus Defence and Space Celtic Springs 
> Coedkernew Newport
> NP10 8FZ
>  
> Phone: [phone]
> [e-mail]
>  
> www.airbusdefenceandspace.com
>  
> From: dtn [mailto:[e-mail]] On Behalf Of Brian Sipos
> Sent: 19 September 2019 16:29
> To: Magnus Westerlund; [e-mail];
> magnus.westerlund=[e-mail];
> [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [dtn] AD review of draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-12
>  
> Magnus,
> Regarding the SNI, which I am in process of adding more specific text about:
>  
> Because a CLA necessarily deals with data in different layers (the 
> transport and network layers below and the bundle layer above) there 
> needs to be clarity about what is being identified in these sections and the SNI text is lacking.
> The purpose for adding the SNI  is to follow the same type of 
> multiplexing that HTTP or similar services can provide. So the SNI 
> would contain the host name used to establish the TCP connection and 
> thus it would have exactly the same syntax and semantics as other 
> protocols using the SNI. There would be no relation between SNI and 
> any bundle-layer identifiers; only network layer identifiers.
>  
> From: Magnus Westerlund
> Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2019 07:14
> To: [e-mail]; magnus.westerlund=[e-mail];
> [e-mail]
> Subject: Re: [dtn] AD review of draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-12
>  
> Hi,
> 
> Yesterday's interim meeting did discuss the EID and SNI relation and 
> our conclusion as I remember them was that the whole URI is put in the 
> SNI field, and future scheme specific definition may define a sub-set 
> of the URI is included.
> 
> Due to me reviewing another document that discussed TLS server name 
> indication (SNI) one thing did get flagged in my head:
> 
> So RFC 6066 defines SNI as a DNS Hostname, however the data type is 
> opaque bytes. However, an DTN or IPN URI is not a host name, so I 
> think we may have a clash with what is written in RFC 6066:
> 
>    Currently, the only server names supported are DNS hostnames;
>    however, this does not imply any dependency of TLS on DNS, and other
>    name types may be added in the future (by an RFC that updates this
>    document).  The data structure associated with the host_name 
> nameType
>    is a variable-length vector that begins with a 16-bit length.  For
>    backward compatibility, all future data structures associated with
>    new NameTypes MUST begin with a 16-bit length field.  TLS MAY treat
>    provided server names as opaque data and pass the names and types to
>    the application.
> 
>    "HostName" contains the fully qualified DNS hostname of the server,
>    as understood by the client.  The hostname is represented as a byte
>    string using ASCII encoding without a trailing dot.  This allows the
>    support of internationalized domain names through the use of A- 
> labels
>    defined in [RFC5890].  DNS hostnames are case-insensitive..  The
>    algorithm to compare hostnames is described in [RFC5890], Section
>    2.3.2.4.
> 
>    Literal IPv4 and IPv6 addresses are not permitted in "HostName".
> 
> I think it is very worth asking someone with more insight into TLS 
> what issues would arise if one attempt to put the general EID into the 
> HotsName definition.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> Magnus
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2019-09-17 at 19:47 +0000, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Sorry about the delay in reviewing your update based on my AD review 
> > comments. Below I have commented on my view how the issue have been 
> > dealt with.
> > 
> > We appear to have a small number of things that are still not fully 
> > resolved in my view so please chech these and comment.
> > 
> > I am also sorry that my mail client apparently eat the numbering. 
> > 
> > 
> > On Thu, 2019-08-01 at 13:31 +0000, Magnus Westerlund wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >  
> > > I have now performed my AD review of draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-12. I 
> > > think most are minor comments, however the TLS and security 
> > > related ones may be more problematic to resolve. I will now be on 
> > > vacation so you know you will not receive any quick replies from 
> > > me before the end of the month.
> > >  
> > > Section 1: What are the applicability of TCPCLv4 to BPv6? I wonder 
> > > as
> > > RFC5050 is referenced. 
> > 
> > Thanks for the new scope section making things much clearer. My 
> > interpretation now is that this document only is for BPv7.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 1.1: Session State Changed. Some editorial issues. Missing 
> > > “:” initially. Then double “..” on Terminated.
> > 
> > Fixed. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 1.1: 
> > >    Session Idle Changed  The TCPCL supports indication when the 
> > > live/idle sub-state changes.  This occurs only when the top-level 
> > > session state is Established.  Because TCPCL transmits serially 
> > > over a TCP connection, it suffers from "head of queue blocking" 
> > > this indication provides information about when a session is 
> > > available for immediate transfer start.
> > > 
> > > So in which direction are this change indicated/reported, both or 
> > > only in one of them, or any as implied by Section 2.1’s definition 
> > > of Live Session?
> > 
> > Fixed
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 1.1: Transmission Intermediate Progress: Segment is not 
> > > defined prior to this. Maybe a forward pointe? Or should maybe the 
> > > whole subsection (1.1) be moved to after definitions?
> > 
> > Fixed
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 2: Is there a point to use the RFC 8174 language that 
> > > makes only capital words have special meaning?
> > 
> > Addressed
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 3.1: “One of these parameters is a singleton endpoint 
> > > identifier for each node (not the singleton Endpoint Identifier
> > > (EID)
> > > of any application running on the node) to denote the bundle-layer 
> > > identity of each DTN node.”
> > > 
> > > The above quote does imply something that at least BPBis isn’t 
> > > making clear that a particular application agent would have its 
> > > own EID.
> > > It
> > > is not clear that there are a one-to-one relationship between 
> > > bundle nodes and application agents. Can you please clarify what 
> > > the relationship is and lets figure out if that needs to be 
> > > clarified back to BPbis.
> > 
> > Ok, so the new text addresses this. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 3.1: “Bundle interleaving can be accomplished by 
> > > fragmentation at the BP layer or by establishing multiple TCPCL 
> > > sessions between the same peers.”
> > > 
> > > Are there clear rules established for how many TCPCL sessions in 
> > > parallel that may be established? By the end of my reading this is 
> > > unanswered.
> > 
> > Answered, no built in limiation. Resource limited. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 3.1: XFER_REFUSE does that indicate that the bundle has 
> > > already been received. How else does one separate other reasons 
> > > for refusing a bundle versus that one have received it prior?
> > 
> > I don't think this needs more texf, section 5.2.4 is clear on that 
> > the reason code will make resolve the reason.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 3:1:    Once a session is established established, TCPCL is
> > > a
> > > symmetric protocol between the peers. 
> > > Double established
> > > 
> > 
> > Fixed.
> > 
> > > Figure 4: “Close message” is this TCP level message, if that is 
> > > the case can that be clarified by prefix with TCP?
> > 
> > Fixed. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 3.2: 
> > >    Notes on Established Session states: 
> > >       Session "Live" means transmitting or reeiving over a transfer
> > >       stream.
> > > 
> > >       Session "Idle" means no transmission/reception over a 
> > > transfer
> > >       stream.
> > > 
> > >      Session "Closing" means no new transfers will be allowed.
> > > 
> > > Note that “Closing” is not used in Figure 4, it is called ending.
> > > Note spelling error on “live” receving.
> > 
> > Fixed
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 3.2: Figure 5 and 6 uses PCH without explanation. Figure 5 
> > > could probably also benefit by expanding CH as Contact Header.
> > 
> > Fixed. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Figure 8 and 10: Uses [SESSTERM] is this the same as using the 
> > > SESS_TERM message, or some other procedure. Please clarify.
> > 
> > Okay looking at this again it is clear that [SESSTERM] is used for 
> > any type of session termination. However, as SESSTERM appears to 
> > only be used in the figures in that meaning, and being defined in 
> > Figure 13, despite existing in 8, 9 and 10 also. Also considering 
> > that Figure 13 and 14 are signalled termination and the other are 
> > failure cases I think a sentence or two should be spent to explain 
> > its meaning prior to its usage.
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 3.3: “   Many other policies can be established in a TCPCL
> > > network between these two extremes.”
> > > 
> > > The list above includes three items, so the two extremes needs to 
> > > be enumerated.
> > 
> > Addressed. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 4.1: Can TCPCLv3 and TCPCLv4 coexist on Port 4556? Based 
> > > on
> > > 9.1 the answer is yes, please clarify here.
> > 
> > Fixed
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 4.1: “Therefore, the entity MUST retry the connection 
> > > setup no earlier than some delay time from the last attempt, and 
> > > it SHOULD use a (binary) exponential backoff mechanism to increase 
> > > this delay in case of repeated failures.”
> > > 
> > > Any recommended upper limit for the backoff?
> > 
> > 
> > Addressed
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 4.2:    Version:  A one-octet field value containing the
> > > value 4 (current version of the protocol). 
> > > 
> > > I think the use of “the protocol” is unclear, maybe call it “the 
> > > TCP convergence layer”. This to avoid confusion with BPv7.
> > 
> > Fixed. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 4.2: Please define how to set and ignore reserved bits in 
> > > the Flags field so that it may be extended in the future.
> > 
> > Okay, it is defined to not be set, which is likely to be interpret 
> > to mean that they should be 0. However, a lazy implementor could 
> > also interpret that they do not need to set their bit-values at all 
> > and may have a system that have random values at initialization of a 
> > memory buffer. I would recommend to use ".. SHALL be set to zero by 
> > the sender."
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 4.3 and 4.4: Due to how the Contact Header relate to TLS 
> > > there is clear risk for a TLS stripping attack where the CAN_TLS 
> > > flag is cleared. I think there need to be some thought about 
> > > mitigation of this weakness. Depending on the expected mix of 
> > > entities and their capabilities one can either have policy for a 
> > > deployment where one mandates TLS being used, thus preventing the 
> > > bid-down by not being according to policy. It is more difficult to 
> > > mitigate in a deployment where one have some entities that doesn’t 
> > > support TLS, unless one can some way securely learn which entities 
> > > support it or not and thus can detect the manipulation. One can 
> > > potentially also first attempt to do a TLS handshake for the best 
> > > version one supports. Then run the CH inside the TLS to prevent 
> > > TCPCL version and other flags to be manipulated. But that doesn’t 
> > > solve the down-bid. I did note the negotiation in Section 4.7 and 
> > > the relation to Security Policy.
> > > Maybe
> > > the solution is to write some text on the risk of TLS striping in 
> > > Section 8 and add forward pointers in 4.7 to that risk.
> > 
> > Section 8 text makes the biddown clear and indicates the policy 
> > mitigation. I think this is sufficient.
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 4.4: Dealing with new TLS versions. BCP 195 does not 
> > > appear to me to define how to deal with newer versions. However, 
> > > as TLS
> > > 1.3
> > > already exist I think this is from the start a relevant question. 
> > 
> > I am asking the security ADs if it is current and sufficient with 
> > the BCP 195 reference.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 4.4: So what about entity authentication? Will the TCPCL 
> > > entity have a name / identity that can be authenticated so that 
> > > one know that one are talking to the right entity. And is the 
> > > solution for this a classical PKI, or something else? Also does 
> > > the passive entity expect the active (TLS client) to authenticate itself also?
> > 
> > Mostly good new text on the authentication. Here I am going beyond 
> > my expertise, but based on that RFC 5280 has been updated several 
> > times, I think you need to figure out if any of these updates should 
> > be indicated as necssary for TCPCLv4. The relevant updates are RFC 
> > 6818 which makes clarifications on RFC 5280 and then the 
> > intenationalization in RFCs 8398, 8399.
> > 
> > The other concern I have is the SNI sentence: "The TLS handshake 
> > SHOULD include a Server Name Indication from the active peer." First 
> > of all you need a reference for server name indication. It is an TLS 
> > extension and not included in the main TLS specification. For TLS 
> > 1.2 it is section 3 of RFC 6066. The second part is that I don't 
> > think it is clearly specified what should be in the SNI field in 
> > TLS. Looking at the DTN URI scheme definition I would guess that 
> > only the node-name part of the URI should be included, or?
> > 
> > This also relates to the section 4.4.2 TLS host name validation part.
> > It says that certificates subjectAltName should be the Node ID. That 
> > raises question marks as no part the DTN URI format defines 
> > something as Node ID. The second is what happens if someone uses 
> > another URI scheme with BP? Or maybe this is simple to resolve if 
> > the whole URI should be used, but that looks less than obvious at 
> > least in the case of DTN. And I haven't looked at the IPN scheme.
> > 
> > Sorry about being very cautious here. But, I know how much trouble I 
> > have had with URIs and their application in the protocol when I 
> > worked with RTSP 2.0.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 4.8: Please define how to set and ignore the reserved bits.
> > 
> > Same as above about zero. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 4.5: Based on that many later sections just refer to the 
> > > Message Header, shouldn’t the section title for section 4.5 be 
> > > Message Header? Now the first mentioning of “Message Header” are 
> > > in Figure 16’s title.
> > 
> > Fixed.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 6.1:
> > >    After sending a SESS_TERM message, an entity MAY continue a 
> > > possible
> > >    in-progress transfer in either direction.  After sending a 
> > > SESS_TERM
> > >    message, an entity SHALL NOT begin any new outgoing transfer 
> > > (i.e.
> > >    send an XFER_SEGMENT message) for the remainder of the session.
> > >    After receving a SESS_TERM message, an entity SHALL NOT accept 
> > > any
> > >    new incoming transfer for the remainder of the session. 
> > > 
> > > To me it seems that the above paragraph contains one contradiction.
> > > The parenthesis in the second sentence (i.e. send an XFER_SEGMENT
> > > message) appears to be false. Because as the beginning of the 
> > > sentence implies that it can’t start a new transfer. However 
> > > SESS_TERM is allowed to be inserted in between XFER_SEGEMENT 
> > > messages for a transfer ID, i.e. XFER_SEGMENT(ID=7), SESS_TERM, 
> > > XFER_SEGMENT(ID=7, end) is an allowed sequence. Can you please 
> > > clarify.
> > 
> > Addressed. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 8. 
> > > If this identifier is used outside of a TLS-secured session or 
> > >    without further verification as a means to determine which 
> > > bundles
> > >    are transmitted over the session, then the node that has 
> > > falsified
> > >    its identity would be able to obtain bundles that it otherwise 
> > > would
> > >    not have.
> > > 
> > > I don’t see how a entity could trust the in SESS_INIT provided EID 
> > > more just because it is in TLS unless there are some mechanism for 
> > > binding the EID to the TLS session endpoint (client or server).
> > > Some
> > > type of authentication is needed to prove the identity. 
> > > 
> > 
> > I think the new text in Section 8 and the clarified TLS procedures 
> > resolves this issue.
> > 
> > 
> > > Section 8.
> > > Therefore, an entity SHALL NOT use the EID value of an unsecured 
> > > contact header to derive a peer node's identity unless it
> > >    can corroborate it via other means.
> > > 
> > > The EID value is not part of the CH, only SESS_INIT. Is this a 
> > > left over from TCPCLv3 or earlier versions?
> > 
> > Fixed.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 8. Needs text on  TLS stripping attack due to the optional 
> > > TLS usage.
> > 
> > Fixed. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 9: “In this section, registration procedures are as 
> > > defined in [RFC8126].” … defined as in …
> > > 
> > 
> > Fixed.
> > 
> > > Section 9: “Some of the registries below are created new for
> > > TCPCLv4
> > > but share code values with TCPCLv3.”
> > > 
> > > I don’t think “share” is the right word here. Maybe “Some of the 
> > > registries have been defined as version specific to TCPCLv4, and 
> > > imports some or all codepoints from TCPCLv3.”
> > 
> > Fixed.
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 9.3: Is RFC Required unnecessary strict? Considering the 
> > > quite large name space, I would think that specification required 
> > > would be a suitable policy? Just trying to understand what you 
> > > think is gained by having someone publish the extension as an RFC, 
> > > in any stream including the independent.
> > 
> > So this was changed to Expert Review and that is fine. Any 
> > registration requirements or special considerations for the Expert?
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 9.4: Same question as for 30)
> > 
> > Addressed. 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Section 9.5: Here RFC required may be suitable. However, does it 
> > > make sense to allocate 2 or 4 points also here for 
> > > Private/Experiments?
> > 
> > Addressed. 
> > > 
> > > Section 9.6: Here I would consider Expert Review with a 
> > > specification requirement. I also do not understand why so much is 
> > > reserved, a reason for that?
> > > 
> > > I would expect that the policy for 9.6-9.8 to be aligned so may 
> > > require change if change is decided on 33.
> > 
> > Fixed. 
> > > 
> > > A big question I have after having read this document is how one 
> > > discover / determine the IP+port(s) to connect to for a given EID.
> > > Is
> > > this currently completely deployment specific? And how bound is 
> > > this to Bundle routing?
> > > 
> > > What may be missing is the section that tells the intended 
> > > implementor that in addition to follow this specification you do 
> > > need a solution to the following things, like for example 
> > > authentication framework that allows one to verify the TLS 
> > > connects to EID mappings.
> > > Or an address resolution protocol that maps EID to IP address and 
> > > port pairs for cases when routing simply give you Forward this 
> > > bundle to EID using TCPCLv4.
> > 
> > So the scope of the document clarifies things and points to some 
> > needs.
> > So I will consider this one resolved. 
> > 
> > Cheers
> > 
> > Magnus Westerlund
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---
> > Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ---
> > Ericsson AB                 | Phone  [phone]
> > Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile [phone]
> > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: [e-mail]
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------
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> > 
> > _______________________________________________
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--
Cheers

Magnus Westerlund 


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Network Architecture & Protocols, Ericsson Research
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Ericsson AB                 | Phone  [phone]
Torshamnsgatan 23           | Mobile [phone]
SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: [e-mail]
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