Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.txt [AD-INT]
"Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> Tue, 03 December 2019 20:14 UTC
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Burleigh, Scott C (US 312B)" <scott.c.burleigh=40jpl.nasa.gov@dmarc.ietf.org>, Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, "dtn@ietf.org" <dtn@ietf.org>, "rick.taylor@airbus.com" <rick.taylor@airbus.com>, "BSipos@rkf-eng.com" <BSipos@rkf-eng.com>
Thread-Topic: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.txt [AD-INT]
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Date: Tue, 03 Dec 2019 20:13:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.txt [AD-INT]
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+1 to Scott's analysis. > -----Original Message----- > From: dtn [mailto:dtn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Burleigh, Scott C (US 312B) > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2019 3:35 PM > To: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org>; dtn@ietf.org; rick.taylor@airbus.com; BSipos@rkf- > eng.com > Subject: Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.txt [AD-INT] > > Okay, wait. If the consensus that was reached at the meeting is not the final consensus, despite direct contemporaneous IESG input, > and we therefore have to go back to the WG mailing list again for a final decision, then I strongly suspect we will once again end up in a > state of non-consensus and immobility. I totally agree with Rick that we must stop going around this buoy, but it may be out of our > hands: I believe there is still significant opposition within the WG to the prospect of the BPbis specification obsoleting RFC 5050. > > If I am wrong about this, excellent; let's press ahead! > > But if I am right, then I would urge us to drop back to the formulation that had been arduously worked out by the chairs as of 17 > October: > > "RFC5050 is an experimental RFC, done in IRTF, while draft-ietf-dtn-bpbis will be a Standard track RFC, done in IETF. Different streams, > different processes. > > "We believe there is a strong consensus to not continue working on RFC5050 and not try to be backward compatible. RFC5050 > implementations and deployments can continue as they see fit. > > "IANA registries have their own life, whatever the stream or type of RFC they were created from. They can always be updated by a > new RFC. > > "Given that, we suggest the following steps: > 1) draft-ietf-dtn-bpbis would not obsolete RFC5050. Instead we would notify IRTF that draft-ietf-dtn-bpbis is an update of > RFC5050. IRTF will decide what they want to do, if anything, with RFC5050. > 2) in the new version of the charter that we are currently working on, we will state clearly that there is no intent to work on or > make compatible work with RFC5050 and related RFCs > 3) DTN working group document authors will review the IANA registries as they are today and request whatever modifications > needed, which may include changing the policies, the content, the rules, …" > > > My interpretation of which is: > > 1. The IETF DTN WG does not have authority to obsolete a document produced by another organization (IRTF), so it will not do > so. > 2. The IRTF is informed that BPbis is being standardized. If IRTF, pursuant to its own deliberations, thereupon chooses to > obsolete RFC5050, fine. > > (I think the same policy would apply to TCPCLv3.) > > I think this can be clearly communicated in the BPv7 specification, and I suspect it may be the only way to achieve the objectives of the > WG and move forward. > > Scott > > -----Original Message----- > From: dtn <dtn-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of Magnus Westerlund > Sent: Friday, November 29, 2019 1:07 AM > To: dtn@ietf.org; magnus.westerlund=40ericsson.com@dmarc.ietf.org; rick.taylor@airbus.com; BSipos@rkf-eng.com > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.txt [AD-INT] > > Rick, > > It was discussed and the meetings consensus was to obsolete it. Until you have confirmed it on the WG mailing list, it is not yet a WG > consensus, so please run that consensus call. > > Cheers > > Magnus > > > On Wed, 2019-11-27 at 11:03 +0000, Taylor, Rick wrote: > > [ AIRBUS DEFENCE AND SPACE INTERNAL ] > > Magnus, > > > > The consensus of the WG is to obsolete BPv6 and by extension TCPCLv3. > > > > Let's try not to keep going around this buoy ;) > > > > Rick > > > > > > > > THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT SUBJECT TO EXPORT CONTROL. > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: dtn [mailto:dtn-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Magnus Westerlund > > Sent: Wednesday, November 27, 2019 9:40 AM > > To: dtn@ietf.org; BSipos@rkf-eng.com > > Subject: Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.txt > > > > On Tue, 2019-11-26 at 19:26 +0000, Brian Sipos wrote: > > > Magnus, > > > I've asked for a SECDIR review of last changes to the draft. > > > > > > The port assignee and contact being the IESG makes sense to me and I > > > will update the draft to reflect this. > > > > > > The use of two reference RFCs doesn't make sense to me, though, and > > > I don't see any examples of this in the current IANA registry. The > > > TCPCLv4 supersedes > > > v3 and is entity-level interoperable with v3. The RFC-TBA also > > > references > > > RFC7242 internally, so if the IANA port registration of just RFC-TBA > > > will allow someone to trace back to RFC7242 if they need to. Seeing > > > one port with two separate protocol versions in the reference seems > > > confusing. > > > > So my goal here was that there would be clear that there might be > > multiple different versions using this particular port. > > > > What was confusing me here and lead me down the reasoning that both > > should be listed was the expectation that BPv6 and its usage of > > TCPclv3 would not be directly obsoleted, and definitely not disapear > > from usage. Re-reading the IANA section and looking at this document I > > think it is clear that if you actually go look in this docuemnt, you > > can figure out that TCPclv3 may also be used on this port. Thus, a > > single reference is fine with me after this additional consideration. > > > > And if we are back to having BPv7 obsolete BPv6, then I think having > > this direct obosletion is fine. If we are not having the first, this > > document's obsoletion of TCPclv3 needs another thought. I note that we > > have not been consistent in our actions due to the obsoletion discussion. > > > > Cheers > > > > Magnus > > > > > > > > > > > > From: Magnus Westerlund > > > Sent: Monday, November 25, 2019 04:27 > > > To: dtn@ietf.org; Brian Sipos > > > Subject: Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.txt > > > > > > Hi Brian, > > > > > > Can you please try to get feedback on the update from the Secdir > > > reviewer, or if you already have, it provide a pointer to that. > > > > > > Anyway, looking at the update I did find an issue we need to fix. > > > > > > In Section 9.1 the Update to the dtn-bundle TCPCL port registration. > > > > > > As this is an IETF protocol now, the assigne should be: > > > > > > IESG <iesg@ietf.org> > > > > > > IESG have had some discussion about the contact person and if that > > > also should be the IESG, the WG or an individual. The argument for > > > making it to IESG is that it likely to be more long term stable that > > > the other options. But, this is more open to discussion, so consider > > > what makes most sense long term and use that. > > > > > > When it comes to references I think there is a point to list both > > > the RFC-TBA as well as RFC7242 that defines the earlier version. > > > But, please list RFC7242 after this docuemnt. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Magnus > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 2019-11-22 at 22:18 +0000, Brian Sipos wrote: > > > > All, > > > > This latest draft of TCPCLv4 addresses comments from SECDIR review > > > > and IANA review. It does not change any of the messaging > > > > structure, only clarifies behaviors related to TLS use and > > > > sequencing, and fixes some contradictory text. > > > > From: dtn <dtn-bounces@ietf.org> on behalf of > > > > internet-drafts@ietf.org < internet-drafts@ietf.org> > > > > Sent: Friday, November 22, 2019 17:04 > > > > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org <i-d-announce@ietf.org> > > > > Cc: dtn@ietf.org <dtn@ietf.org> > > > > Subject: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.txt > > > > > > > > > > > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > > > > directories. > > > > This draft is a work item of the Delay/Disruption Tolerant > > > > Networking WG of the IETF. > > > > > > > > Title : Delay-Tolerant Networking TCP Convergence Layer > > > > Protocol Version 4 > > > > Authors : Brian Sipos > > > > Michael Demmer > > > > Joerg Ott > > > > Simon Perreault > > > > Filename : draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.txt > > > > Pages : 63 > > > > Date : 2019-11-22 > > > > > > > > Abstract: > > > > This document describes a revised protocol for the TCP-based > > > > convergence layer (TCPCL) for Delay-Tolerant Networking (DTN). The > > > > protocol revision is based on implementation issues in the original > > > > TCPCL Version 3 of RFC7242 and updates to the Bundle Protocol > > > > contents, encodings, and convergence layer requirements in Bundle > > > > Protocol Version 7. Specifically, the TCPCLv4 uses CBOR-encoded BPv7 > > > > bundles as its service data unit being transported and provides a > > > > reliable transport of such bundles. Several new IANA registries are > > > > defined for TCPCLv4 which define some behaviors inherited from > > > > TCPCLv3 but with updated encodings and/or semantics. > > > > > > > > > > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4/ > > > > > > > > There are also htmlized versions available at: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16 > > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16 > > > > > > > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > > > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16 > > > > > > > > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > > > > submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > > > > tools.ietf.org. > > > > > > > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > > > > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > dtn mailing list > > > > dtn@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtn > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > dtn mailing list > > > > dtn@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtn > > > > -- > > Cheers > > > > Magnus Westerlund > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Networks, Ericsson Research > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > This email and its attachments may contain confidential and/or > > privileged information. If you have received them in error you must > > not use, copy or disclose their content to any person. Please notify > > the sender immediately and then delete this email from your system. > > This e-mail has been scanned for viruses, but it is the responsibility > > of the recipient to conduct their own security measures. Airbus > > Operations Limited is not liable for any loss or damage arising from the receipt or use of this e-mail. > > > > Airbus Operations Limited, a company registered in England and Wales, > > registration number, 3468788. Registered office: Pegasus House, > > Aerospace Avenue, Filton, Bristol, BS34 7PA, UK. > > _______________________________________________ > > dtn mailing list > > dtn@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtn > -- > Cheers > > Magnus Westerlund > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Networks, Ericsson Research > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 10 7148287 > Torshamnsgatan 23 | Mobile +46 73 0949079 > SE-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > _______________________________________________ > dtn mailing list > dtn@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtn
- Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.t… Taylor, Rick
- Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.t… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.t… Burleigh, Scott C (US 312B)
- Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.t… lloyd.wood
- Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.t… Magnus Westerlund
- Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.t… Templin (US), Fred L
- Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.t… Burleigh, Scott C (US 312B)
- Re: [dtn] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dtn-tcpclv4-16.t… Magnus Westerlund