Re: [dtn] Mirja Kühlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dtn-bpsec-18: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com> Mon, 17 February 2020 09:18 UTC

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From: Magnus Westerlund <magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com>
To: "rja.lists@gmail.com" <rja.lists@gmail.com>, "dtn@ietf.org" <dtn@ietf.org>, "Edward.Birrane@jhuapl.edu" <Edward.Birrane@jhuapl.edu>
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Date: Mon, 17 Feb 2020 09:18:43 +0000
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Subject: Re: [dtn] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_Discuss_on_draft-ietf-d?= =?utf-8?q?tn-bpsec-18=3A_=28with_DISCUSS_and_COMMENT=29?=
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Hi,

Adding the Sec ADs to this discussion. To resolve the whole chain of security
related issues here.

I don't see any major issue with the below plan except for how we handle the
fact that there will not be an automatic key-exchange available for DTN nodes
immediately and that this is only in the WG's plans. 

Is there anything better we can do than to promise to update either BPSec or the
interoperability security context document with the automatic key-exchange
solution when it is available? Or is the whole of the DTN work going to hang in
the RFC-editor queue until those components are available? I would really like
to avoid that. 

Cheers

Magnus


On Mon, 2020-02-17 at 04:17 +0000, Birrane, Edward J. wrote:
> Ran,
> 
>   I do recall that you made this same point at one of the DTNWG meetings.  
> 
>   It seems the desired way forward would be to 
> 
> 1. Take the current bpsec interoperability security contexts document (draft-
> ietf-dtn-bpsec-interop-sc) and make it a normative reference in bpsec.
> 2. State in the new section 9.1 of BpSec that the interop security contexts
> are mandatory-to-implement.
> 3. Put the interop security contexts into the review cycle (they are in WG
> last call at this point, I believe).
> 
> Would this be a satisfactory outcome?
> 
> -Ed
> 
> 
> Edward J. Birrane, III, Ph.D.
> Embedded Applications Group Supervisor
> Principal Staff, Space Exploration Sector
> Johns Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory
> (W) 443-778-7423 / (F) 443-228-3839
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: dtn <dtn-bounces@ietf.org> On Behalf Of R. Atkinson
> Sent: Thursday, February 13, 2020 5:17 PM
> To: DTN WG <dtn@ietf.org>
> Cc: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> Subject: [EXT] Re: [dtn] Mirja Kühlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dtn-bpsec-18: 
> (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> 
> APL external email warning: Verify sender dtn-bounces@ietf.org before clicking
> links or attachments 
> 
> All,
> 
> I think it quite reasonable for the WG to define at least one "mandatory-to-
> implement" (i.e., NOT mandatory to use) set of security algorithms/modes for
> BPsec — and I think it quite reasonable for the IESG to require that the WG
> make such a choice.
> 
> The IETF has at least 30 years of experience that if at least one “mandatory-
> to-implement” security profile is NOT required/specified, then non-
> interoperability is the actual result.  In this case, non-interoperability
> would mean that two different systems who DO wish to use BPsec between
> themselves actually cannot use it — because of disjoint algorithms/modes
> having been implemented in the different implementations.
> 
> I’m not terribly particular about which algorithms/modes the WG picks,
> although choosing algorithms/modes readily available in open-source libraries
> (for example: the OpenSSL library) does simplify life for implementers.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Ran
> 
> > On Feb 11, 2020, at 11:37, Mehmet Adalier <madalier@antarateknik.com> wrote:
> > 
> > While it is possible to find such a minimal requirement, I do not believe
> > that one is required at the BPsec protocol level.
> > I'd also like to recommend that the BPsec RFC does not specify a "minimum"
> > interoperability context.
> > 
> > Depending on the use-case, interoperable contexts can be defined as other
> > specifications. 
> > 
> > An example is appropriate CCSDS books which indicate interoperable contexts.
> > . Another example is the International Communication System Interoperability
> > Standards (ICSIS).
> > 
> > Mehmet
> > 
> > 
> > On 2/11/20, 4:04 AM, "dtn on behalf of Mirja Kuehlewind" <
> > dtn-bounces@ietf.org on behalf of ietf@kuehlewind.net> wrote:
> > 
> >    Hi Ed,
> > 
> >    Thanks for the new text section 9.1. Reading this text I would to confirm
> > one more thing: I understand that the best choice for the security context
> > can be very different, however, the point of interoperability is to have at
> > least one available, that might not be optimal but it better than none.
> > Having one common security context required would also simply mean that each
> > implementation would need to support that and therefore it becomes much
> > easier for people to reply BPSec if the provided one is suitable. Is it not
> > possible to find such a minimal requirement?
> > 
> >    Mirja
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > On 8. Feb 2020, at 01:23, Birrane, Edward J. <Edward.Birrane@jhuapl.edu>
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > Mirja,
> > > 
> > > Thank you for the review. I have updated a new version of BPSEC  (BPSEC20)
> > > which attempts to address your DISCUSS and COMMENTS below.
> > > 
> > > Specific comments are in-line below.  I have enumerated the Discuss items
> > > as **D# and the comment items as **C# to aid in referencing these points
> > > going forward.
> > > 
> > > -Ed
> > > 
> > > ---
> > > Edward J. Birrane, III, Ph.D.
> > > Embedded Applications Group Supervisor Space Exploration Sector Johns 
> > > Hopkins Applied Physics Laboratory
> > > (W) 443-778-7423 / (F) 443-228-3839
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Mirja Kühlewind via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org>
> > > > Sent: Monday, February 03, 2020 6:17 AM
> > > > To: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
> > > > Cc: draft-ietf-dtn-bpsec@ietf.org; Scott Burleigh 
> > > > <Scott.C.Burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov>ov>; dtn-chairs@ietf.org; 
> > > > Scott.C.Burleigh@jpl.nasa.gov; dtn@ietf.org
> > > > Subject: [EXT] Mirja Kühlewind's Discuss on draft-ietf-dtn-bpsec-18: 
> > > > (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
> > > > 
> > > > APL external email warning: Verify sender noreply@ietf.org before 
> > > > clicking links or attachments
> > > > 
> > > > Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
> > > > draft-ietf-dtn-bpsec-18: Discuss
> > > > 
> > > > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to 
> > > > all email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to 
> > > > cut this introductory paragraph, however.)
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > Please refer to 
> > > > https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > > > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > > > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-dtn-bpsec/
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > DISCUSS:
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > 
> > > > Sec 1.2 says:
> > > > "A sample security
> > > >  context has been defined ([I-D.ietf-dtn-bpsec-interop-sc]) to 
> > > > support  interoperability testing and serve as an exemplar for how 
> > > > security  contexts should be defined for this specification."
> > > > However I don't really understand how interoperability can be 
> > > > reached if there is not at least one security context that is 
> > > > mandatory to implement in this draft (especially as 
> > > > ietf-dtn-bpsec-interop-sc is expired for more than half a year
> > > > already)...?
> > > 
> > > **D1: I have added a new Section 9.1 to BPSEC20 which describes the
> > > desired approach to BPSec and security contexts.  I have also updated
> > > ietf-dtn-bpsec-interop-sc which should be going into WG last call.
> > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > COMMENT:
> > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > --
> > > > 
> > > > Please use the updated disclaimer in rfc8174.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > **C1: Agreed. The disclaimer has been updated in BPSEC20.
> > > 
> > > -Ed
> > > 
> > 
> >    _______________________________________________
> >    dtn mailing list
> >    dtn@ietf.org
> >    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtn
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > dtn mailing list
> > dtn@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/dtn
> 
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-- 
Cheers

Magnus Westerlund 


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