Re: [Ecrit] Charter & Milestones update - Comments sought

Roger Marshall <RMarshall@telecomsys.com> Mon, 21 October 2013 20:01 UTC

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From: Roger Marshall <RMarshall@telecomsys.com>
To: Randall Gellens <randy@qti.qualcomm.com>, Richard Barnes <rlb@ipv.sx>
Thread-Topic: [Ecrit] Charter & Milestones update - Comments sought
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Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 19:59:35 +0000
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Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Charter & Milestones update - Comments sought
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Richard:
You suggested text: "any solution presented must not rely on assumptions specific to a given jurisdiction or region"

I think your text mod takes us too far, since some of our ECRIT solutions do rely on assumptions specific to a given jurisdiction... (but not only that jurisdiction).

What's wrong with the original text, when it says,
"any solution presented must be useful regardless of jurisdiction"
I believe means that we should build "general purpose solutions" that could be applied anywhere (though assuming only with Internet technologies).

Randy:
Your objection to the text,
"...and it must be possible to use without requiring a
    single, central authority. "
yes, this has applied to routing, but I don't think it is/was limited to just routing  (It doesn't even preclude having a single, central authority).  I think this could be taken to mean any distributed service, including rich data sources and the like.  No solutions that _require_ a central authority to own it all.

-roger.


-roger.




From: Randall Gellens [mailto:randy@qti.qualcomm.com]
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 11:29 AM
To: Richard Barnes
Cc: Roger Marshall; ecrit_ietf.org
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Charter & Milestones update - Comments sought

Hi Richard,

At 9:05 PM +0300 10/21/13, Richard Barnes wrote:

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:47 PM, Randall Gellens <randy@qti.qualcomm.com<mailto:randy@qti.qualcomm.com>> wrote:
Hi Richard,

I don't what what the phrase "useful regardless of jurisdiction" is supposed to mean in this context, and I'm concerned that it might be interpreted to mean that work needed for, e.g., eCall that is intended for use within the E.U. is out of scope.  Likewise for work intended for NENA's needs.  I agree that we don't want to do work that *can't* be used broadly on the Internet, but that's different than prohibiting work *intended* (at least initially) for use within a particular continent.  I suppose we could say "potentially useful" instead of just "useful" to make it clear that the prohibition is only on what the work *could* be used for, and not what it is initially intended for use for.  I still think we could just delete the sentence, since I don't see the group in danger of doing work that can't be broadly used.

Ok, I think we're more or less on the same page w.r.t. the intent of the "jurisdiction" text.  How about this?

OLD: "any solution presented must be useful regardless of jurisdiction"
NEW: "any solution presented must not rely on assumptions specific to a given jurisdiction or region"

I'm not sure what this will mean in practice, and I'm concerned that it could limit work that NENA or eCall needs (someone could say that all of NENA i3 is based on assumptions specific to North America).  Let's take a step back and see first if we feel that the group is likely to venture into something that we want to prohibit.  If so, let's agree precisely what it is that the group is likely to do and then agree on text to stop it.  On the other hand, if we think the group and its chairs are sufficiently mature at this stage, maybe we don't need this text in the charter.  Groups certainly do need more restrictive charter text early on.



To me, the phrase "it must be possible to use without requiring a single, central authority" seems intended to limit the work that became LosT, to try and avoid creating an LDAP-type situation that required a global root.

However, it seems like that's still a desirable goal for other systems, right?  Just to make something up, suppose an ACN system depended on a single, standardized clearing house for ACN notifications.  That would be bad, right?  But it could also be tempting in a particular jurisdiction to assume that such a clearing-house is set in the standard.  So ISTM this text is valuable for reminding people that things like that need to be discoverable.

I'd rather not have charter language based on such made up examples, especially for a group that is fairly mature and that doesn't seem to be in danger of heading off into dangerous areas.  If someone proposed an ACN or even an authority-to-citizen alert protocol that required a single authority to clear all transactions, would the group be in danger of accepting the proposal?  If not, then we don't need the charter to prohibit it.




At 8:29 PM +0300 10/21/13, Richard Barnes wrote:


Could you explain more why that sentence is problematic?  After all, our job here is to design things for the whole Internet; work that is only useful to a given jurisdiction should be done there.

That's not to say that the general work can't be based on locality-specific work, and done at the same time -- RFC 6881 is arguably a generalization of a part of the NENA system.  But what's done in the IETF needs to remain general.

--Richard

On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 8:24 PM, Randall Gellens <randy@qti.qualcomm.com<mailto:randy@qti.qualcomm.com>> wrote:
Hi Roger,

I suggest deleting:

        "any solution presented must be useful regardless of jurisdiction, and it must be possible to use without requiring a single, central authority"


The text seems to me to be more applicable to the solution that became LoST.  As such, I don't think it serves any purpose now.




At 5:10 PM +0000 10/21/13, Roger Marshall wrote:


Randy:
I'm not sure what you're proposing as a change to the text.

I agree that the present text has some history in pre-LoST, but I don't think its inclusion limits what you are suggesting, (ACN or pan-EU emergency calling).

-roger.

From: Randall Gellens [mailto:randy@qti.qualcomm.com<mailto:randy@qti.qualcomm.com>]
Sent: Monday, October 07, 2013 1:46 PM
To: Roger Marshall; ecrit_ietf.org<http://ecrit_ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [Ecrit] Charter & Milestones update - Comments sought

I realize some of this language is a holdover from our very early days when we weren't sure which way we could go for things which became LoST, for example.  Still, I'm not sure exactly what "any solution presented must be useful regardless of jurisdiction, and it must be possible to use without requiring a single, central authority" mean today.  In one sense, everything we do has dependency on jurisdiction, because not all jurisdictions will migrate to next-generation at the same time.  A SIP-based emergency call won't work in a legacy emergency call jurisdiction.

We want to be sure that we can work on generic ACN and pan-Europen eCall.


At 6:18 PM +0000 10/4/13, Roger Marshall wrote:

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The ECRIT working group agreed that the chairs would propose updated language to the wg charter, along with milestone data changes.

Compare this to the original charter found at: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/ecrit/charters.

Please send your comments to the list, whether in favor, or with alternative wording and/or dates.

Regards,

Roger Marshall/Marc Linsner
ECRIT Chairs

ECRIT charter (w/proposed revisions):


Description of Working Group:

    In a number of areas, the public switched telephone network (PSTN) has
    been configured to recognize an explicitly specified number (usually
    one that is short and easily memorized) as a request for emergency
    services.  These numbers (e.g., 911, 112) are related to an emergency
    service context and depend on a broad, regional configuration of
    service contact methods and a geographically-constrained approach for
    service delivery.  These calls are intended to be delivered to special
    call centers equipped to manage emergency response. Successful
    delivery of an emergency service call within those systems requires
    an association of both the physical location of the originating device
    along with appropriate call routing to an emergency service center.

    Calls placed using Internet technologies do not use the same systems
    Mentioned above to achieve those same goals, and the common use of
    overlay networks and tunnels (either as VPNs or for mobility) makes
    meeting these goals even more challenging.  There are, however,
    Internet technologies available to manage location and to perform call
    routing.  This working group will describe where and how these mechanisms
    may be used. The group will show how the availability of location data
    and call routing information at different steps in the call session
    setup would enable communication between a user and a relevant emergency
    response center. Though the term "call routing" is used in this document,
    it should be understood that some of the mechanisms which will be
    described might be used to enable other types of media streams. Video
    and text messaging, for example, might be used to request emergency

    services.

    Beyond human initiated emergency call request mechanisms, this group will
    develop new methods to request emergency assistance, such as sensor
    initiated emergency requests, and additional processes specified that
    address topics such as authentication of location, service URN definition

    and use, augmented information that could assist emergency call takers or
    responders.

    Explicitly outside the scope of this group is the question of
    pre-emption or prioritization of emergency services traffic. This
    group is considering emergency services calls which might be made by
    any user of the Internet, as opposed to government or military
    services that may impose very different authentication and routing
    requirements.

    While this group anticipates a close working relationship with groups
    such as NENA and ETSI EMTEL, any solution presented must be useful
    regardless of jurisdiction, and it must be possible to use without requiring a
    single, central authority.  Further, it must be possible for multiple
    delegations within a jurisdiction to be handled independently, as call
    routing for specific emergency types may be handled independently.

    This working group cares about privacy and security concerns, and will
    address them within its documents.


Milestones w/revised status/dates, as proposed

Done - Submit 'Public Safety Answering Point (PSAP) Callbacks' to the IESG
for consideration as an Informational RFC

Nov 2013 - Submit 'Trustworthy Location Information' to the IESG for
consideration as an Informational RFC

Dec 2013 - Submit 'Additional Data related to a Call for Emergency Call
Purposes' to the IESG for consideration as a Standards Track RFC

Nov 2013 - Submit 'Common Alerting Protocol (CAP) based Data-Only
Emergency Alerts using the Session Initiation Protocol (SIP)' to the IESG for consideration as an
Experimental RFC

Dec 2013 - Submit 'Extensions to the Emergency Services Architecture for
dealing with Unauthenticated and Unauthorized Devices' to the IESG for consideration
as a Standards Track RFC

Dec 2013 - Submit a draft 'Policy for defining new service-identifying
labels' to the IESG for consideration as BCP


Mar 2014 - Submit 'Using Imprecise Location for Emergency Call Routing'
to the IESG for consideration as an Informational RFC

Dec 2013 - Submit a draft 'URN For Country Specific Emergency Services'
to the IESG for consideration as a Standards Track RFC

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Randall Gellens
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Randall Gellens
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Randall Gellens
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Randall Gellens
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