Re: [Ecrit] planned-changes: two questions

["Caron, Guy" <[e-mail]>]

Well, this notification process is for planned changes and in the majority of cases, planned changes will trigger notification in advance of the change. It actually may be a benefit to the Server to send notifications in bundles, especially if the planned change is large. That way it could somewhat control the surge of revalidations coming to it.

Guy

De : Brian Rosen <[e-mail]>
Envoyé : 31 août 2021 17:12
À : Caron, Guy <[e-mail]>
Cc : Randall Gellens <[e-mail]>rg>; ECRIT <[e-mail]>
Objet : [EXT]Re: [Ecrit] planned-changes: two questions

It could limit it, but that would be a problem if it limited it such that a large planned change properly registered couldn’t work.  In some areas, they change hundreds of thousands of address points in a large annexation.  It’s not typically millions, but you could imagine something like a county that dumps a new Site/Structure list where there wasn’t one before that triggers this kind of notification.

That doesn’t change the need for start and limit if the list can be big.  Lots of systems I know have pretty severe limits on the size of an upload response for interfaces like this.

Hmmm, start and limit go the wrong way.  The notification is the POST.  Start and Limit are for a GET.  We would have to implement an equivalent on the registration.

Brian


On Aug 31, 2021, at 4:57 PM, Caron, Guy <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

The size of the list could be a policy at the Server.

Guy

De : Brian Rosen <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Envoyé : 31 août 2021 16:55
À : Caron, Guy <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc : Randall Gellens <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; ECRIT <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Objet : [EXT]Re: [Ecrit] planned-changes: two questions

If we did that, we would have to implement limit and start to handle a large list.

Brian




On Aug 31, 2021, at 4:38 PM, Caron, Guy <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

If we make <revalidateLocation> a list of IDs, one notification per URI per planned change would be sufficient.

Guy

De : Brian Rosen <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Envoyé : 31 août 2021 15:35
À : Randall Gellens <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc : Caron, Guy <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; ECRIT <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Objet : [EXT]Re: [Ecrit] planned-changes: two questions

No.

There is one URI, but many IDs, one per unique record at the LoST server that is involved in a planned change.  The one URI will receive one notification per ID it has registered for.






On Aug 31, 2021, at 2:56 PM, Randall Gellens <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

i understand that the concern is allowing a client to leverage the LoST server to attack a large number of targets, I'm just not clear mechanically how such leverage potentially works. Each validation query can store a URI, and that URI may get associated with a large number of locations. Maybe there's a street name change or an annexation. So maybe thousands or tens or hundreds of thousands of locations are potentially invalidated. They all have the same URI associated with them, so the LoST server connects to the URI once and POSTs one notification, no?
--Randall
On 31 Aug 2021, at 10:53, Brian Rosen wrote:
Of course an attacker would conceal itself and register multiple URIs under different identities.  But the bigger  problem is that if a large planned change occurred, the victim could receive a large number of notifications it didn’t expect.

With a test transition, we know that the client expects to see notifications, we only need one per URI (we could specify one per domain — after the scheme and before the first slash).  If we don’t get the ID, we know not to allow that URI to be provisioned.  So it’s one test transaction vs a large number of planned change transactions.

Brian





On Aug 31, 2021, at 1:35 PM, Randall Gellens <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

If a malicious client registers a URI that is designed to attack a third site, the test transaction causes the LoST server to connect to it and POST a command. Without a test transaction, the LoST server stores the URI and at a future time connects to it and sends a command. Either way, a LoST client can register potentially one URI per queried location, and a LoST server will connect to that URI and POST a message. A queried location could be tied to many other locations, so there could be many locations for which a change would trigger the LoST server to use the URI, but is that worse?
--Randall
On 31 Aug 2021, at 10:27, Brian Rosen wrote:
If the work group wants to have the LoST server keep the URI until expressly deleted, that’s okay with me.

Authenticating the client to the server doesn’t mean the URI is authenticated.  We can’t restrict the URI to be the same entity as the client running the LoST transaction.  And the clients are wide ranging.  Could be an enterprise running its own LIS for example.  We can’t assume the North American PKI is workable everywhere, and even that doesn’t extend to an enterprise LIS.  ISTM we have to run a test transaction with the notification service to make sure it’s what we think it is.

Brian






On Aug 31, 2021, at 9:01 AM, Caron, Guy <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

Inline.

Guy

-----Message d'origine-----
De : Brian Rosen <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Envoyé : 31 août 2021 08:11
À : Caron, Guy <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Cc : Randall Gellens <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>; ECRIT <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>>
Objet : [EXT]Re: [Ecrit] planned-changes: two questions

You delete the URI when you delete the record in the LIS.
[GC] That's fine but that was not the question Randall posed. He asked whether the URI is deleted after a notification. I agree that if the Client does not host the location anymore that the URI associated with that location in the Server should be deleted. This could be achieved with an empty <plannedChange>.

I don’t think this is covered in 5222.  The mechanism causes the LoST server to send notifications to the client, but the client is allowed to put any URI in the record, and it can add it to as many records as it wants.
[GC] I thought we agreed on using one generic URI per Client. Clients should be authenticated by the Servers.
 An evil implementation could record URIs against multiple targets that were unaware that the evil implementation did it, until they got a large number of PUSH transactions they didn’t expect or understand as a result of a large planned change.
[GC] Only authenticated Clients should be allowed to provide URIs to be stored by the Servers.

The proposed mechanism qualifies the client URI before its used in a planned change.

Brian




On Aug 31, 2021, at 7:37 AM, Caron, Guy <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

Well, this is not going in the direction I thought.

What is the purpose of deleting the URIs at the Server post-validation?

Regarding opening a new DoS, I guess I'm not following. Wouldn't this case be covered by the security considerations in RFC 5222?

What you're proposing puts back significant load on the Servers (a key consideration for creating planned-changes in the first place) and complicates the mechanism.

Guy


-----Message d'origine-----
De : Ecrit <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> De la part de Brian Rosen Envoyé :
30 août 2021 11:22 À : Randall Gellens <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> Cc
: ECRIT <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> Objet : [EXT]Re: [Ecrit] planned-changes: two
questions

Answer 1: yes.  Since there is going to be a revalidation, just deleting the setting seems right to me.
Answer 2: Up to server.  If I were implementing, I would hash the real ID with the URI and some kind of predictable nonce.

We probably have to say more about how the server identifies the client, so that replacement of the URI works.  Could we say we use the domain of the URI (the entire domain with all the dots) to identify the client, and anything can occur after it (meaning a slash and whatever)?  If we do that, then how would delete the notification?  Force there to be something other than the domain (ugly).  Explicit delete request?

Hmmm, we’ve opened a DoS attack: a rogue client stores a bunch of URIs for servers it wants to victimize.  In North America we have a real simple solution for that, because we have a PKI, so we know, for sure, who the client is, and could restrict who we allow to store URIs, but that wouldn’t be true in general.  Also, it would be nice for the client to have confidence the mechanism worked before it needed it.

So
Let’s add a “command” to plannedChange in the findService request.
And, have the client have a response to the notification which is the
ID (json with the 200)


The client starts by sending a command of “initialize”.  The domain is the identity of the client.  The response is an immediate notification to the with whatever LI was in the request and an ID.  The  response by the client (which is the notification web server) is a piece of json containing the ID.  We can say that the LI in this initialize command could be something simple like the Country Code that wouldn’t get a planned change.

Thereafter, the LoST server (notification client) periodically repeats this keepalive notification every day or week with the initialize LI.  The client has to respond with the ID.

The regular notification request is a command of “notify”.  The server ignores a request for notification from an uninitialized client.
The notification can be deleted with a command of “delete”.  If you delete the initialize LI, then the server won’t send any more notifications to that client and deletes all URIs it was saving for that client.  The client would have to re-initialize to reset.

Brian




On Aug 27, 2021, at 5:41 PM, Randall Gellens <[e-mail]<mailto:[e-mail]>> wrote:

I think we're moving to a model where:
- In a query, a client can request to be notified when the location
should be revalidated;
- In the response, the server provides an ID which the client
associates with the location it just validated;
- The server sends a notification to the URI, containing the ID;
- The client revalidates each location with which that ID is associated.

Question 1: Does the server delete/inactivate the URI once it has sent the notification?

Question 2: Presumably, when the client revalidates the location(s), it will again request notification.  Does the server return the same ID as before, or a different ID?  A different ID could perhaps be useful in edge cases where the server didn't send or the client didn't get the notification, but any utility seems small.  If it's the same ID, then the answer to question 1 can be that the URI remains active until the client asks to no longer be notified (by sending an empty URI?).

--Randall

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