Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1
Vijay Gurbani <vijay.gurbani@gmail.com> Thu, 10 September 2020 21:24 UTC
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From: Vijay Gurbani <vijay.gurbani@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 16:24:14 -0500
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: edm@iab.org
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Subject: Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1
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Dear Brian: Thank you for your comments! Having co-authored one RFC with you, I value your experience and judgment. Please see inline. On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 3:45 PM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > Hi, > > I too think that RFC7942 is sadly under-used; it's very rare that I see it > during Gen-ART reviews and I would like to see more. I have used it myself > in a few drafts. > > However, I think it would be a serious mistake to include such information > in RFCs. RFCs are archival documents with an infinite lifetime. Do we > really want them to contain URLs for GitHub repositories of prototype > implementations? > Indeed, RFCs are archival documents with an infinite lifetime, but RFCs are also scientific documents, and as any scientific document, sometimes their content is absolute (Shannon's "Mathematical Theory of Communications" paper, for instance), and sometimes their content can be updated (the hundreds of documents the scientific community is producing now on Covid-19). IEEE and ACM are encouraging scientific papers to contain links to datasets and experiments that are hosted for archival by these institutions. Why can't we? In the extreme case, if you read a peer-reviewed scientific publication in a top quality journal and click on an expired link in that journal, the act of not finding the contents at the end of the link likely should not invalidate the entire research. I think that we are doing a disservice to the future readers (and implementers) of RFCs by assuming that they will not pay attention to the "caveat emptor" text associated with any GitHub repositories, especially if these warnings are in a section that screams that the contents of the GitHub repository were current as of the publication date of this RFC and that no endorsement of the GitHub repository is made by the IETF beyond the publication date of the RFC. I really see no harm, I see a lot of benefit. Or what amounts to advertising for specific products? Should RFC 2460 > include a pointer to the first commercial IPv6 implementation (IBM AIX 4.3)? > These are good questions; they have answers that would require us to come to consensus on. I will certainly give you my answer to this and hope that it changes your mind, or if not, at least incentivize you to explore the issue from a different angle. In my association with the IETF, I have come to appreciate the communal way in which we develop our protocols. This is inspite of the fact that each one of us --- at least a majority --- work for corporations that fund us to attend the meetings and conduct the work. If because of this prevelant communal zeitgeist in the IETF, we don't have a "Company-X version of Procol P", or a "Company-Y version of Protocol P", why do we assume the community will tacitly endorse implementations that amount to advertising for specific products? Surely, we have come beyond that, no? We have guardrails in place (WG chairs, AD, IESG, perhaps ISOC and IAB) to make sure that this does not happen. So what are we reticient about? Regarding whether RFC 2460 should have included a pointer to the first commercial implementation of IPv6 from IBM, well sure, with a constraint: as long as IBM was willing to make the code available openly (as happens in GitHubs now), and allows others to experiment with it and make it better, I don't see the harm. Of course, if IBM was not willing to make the code available publicly, then this line of thinking is moot. Thank you much! Cheers, - vijay
- [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Vijay Gurbani
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Spencer Dawkins at IETF
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Vijay Gurbani
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Vijay Gurbani
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Mirja Kuehlewind
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Vijay Gurbani
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Edm] Some thoughts on Sep 1 meeting, Issue 1 Vijay Gurbani