Re: [Eligibility-discuss] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-elegy-rfc8989bis-04: (with COMMENT)
John C Klensin <john@jck.com> Wed, 01 February 2023 17:56 UTC
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Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2023 12:56:19 -0500
From: John C Klensin <john@jck.com>
To: Warren Kumari <warren@kumari.net>, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>
cc: draft-ietf-elegy-rfc8989bis@ietf.org, elegy-chairs@ietf.org, eligibility-discuss@ietf.org, barryleiba@computer.org, dromasca@gmail.com, opsdir@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [Eligibility-discuss] Warren Kumari's No Objection on draft-ietf-elegy-rfc8989bis-04: (with COMMENT)
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--On Wednesday, February 1, 2023 08:20 -0800 Warren Kumari via Datatracker <noreply@ietf.org> wrote: > It's not really clear to me what a "false affiliation" > actually is -- in some other organizations, where voting is a > thing, it is common for there to be lots of one or two person > consulting companies. These consultants all have different > affiliations, they just *happen* to have contracts with the > same larger organization, and also just *happen* to all vote > in the same way... Would these be false affiliations? Just to add a bit to that excerpt of Warren's comment: In some contexts, we have asked consultants to disclose whom they are working for. But there are at least two situations for those consultants. One variety, while technically consultants, are working exclusively (or nearly so) for one company. Others of us have multiple clients, typically each for a few days a month or less. To complicate things further, some of us have even have had retainer arrangements in which a client may not call for months and situations where we are engaged by two separate, competing, companies (disclosed to each and for different purposes and tasks). In addition, there are some types of consulting agreements on which NDAs are not unusual. If, for example, I were doing some work for a survey research company who did not want that relationship disclosed (I am not at present, but have in the past), I would be able to tell the Nomcom volunteer selection process that I am not doing work for any company in the Internet business. I could even tell them that I'm not working for specific company X or anyone I know to be one of its competitors. But I would not be able to identify that affiliation. For those multi-client consultants "affiliation" may be extremely hard to sort out if, even, the IETF is allowed to know. How far down that slippery slope do we want to go in the direction of excluding people from the Nomcom whose income is not based on traditional, single-company, full time, salaried employment? I vaguely remember one suggestion that, if a consulting had any clients at all whose identities could not be made public, that person should be excluded from the Nomcom pool. But, if we go that far, there is no longer any possibility of the Nomcom representing a reasonable cross-section of the community. As a further complication, I don't believe I've seen any real discussion of whether employees or consultants to the LLC should be allowed on, or excluded from, the Nomcom. > Note > that I don't really view this as major issue -- if we end up > in a scenario where people are gaming this, then we've already > lost. Turned around a bit, I think that is the crux of the problem. If we have enough safeguards (and confidence in the integrity of IETF participants and the people who pay them or cover all or part of their expenses for participation), then some of the details in the document fall close to making us feel good because there is something that looks like an explicit provision. If we don't, maybe we should be describing inappropriate behavior by examples and/or ask Nomcom members to explicit affirm that they do not have problem affiliations and that they will immediately disclose the fact and resign if anyone in a position to influence them attempts to do so where specific candidates are concerned. Or we can continue down the present path but if going very far in that direction (or needing to) indicates that we have already lost... well, what's the point? And, if we know the document is, beyond some point, really establishing principles and norms rather than rules we are confident would work, wouldn't it be desirable to say that? thanks, john
- [Eligibility-discuss] Warren Kumari's No Objectio… Warren Kumari via Datatracker
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] Warren Kumari's No Obje… John C Klensin
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] Warren Kumari's No Obje… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] Warren Kumari's No Obje… John C Klensin
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] Warren Kumari's No Obje… Martin Duke
- Re: [Eligibility-discuss] Warren Kumari's No Obje… Warren Kumari