Re: [Fwd: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in the EME charter - need for clarification]
Rémi Després <remi.despres@rd-iptech.com> Tue, 14 November 2006 10:25 UTC
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Date: Tue, 14 Nov 2006 11:15:11 +0100
From: Rémi Després <remi.despres@rd-iptech.com>
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To: Tilman Wolf <wolf@ecs.umass.edu>
Subject: Re: [Fwd: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in the EME charter - need for clarification]
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Thanks. Further comments below. Rémi Tilman Wolf wrote: > Remi, > > I have to admit that I didn't write the charter. I have tried contacting > Paul Francis a couple of days ago to see if he has any comments on your > question, but I haven't heard from him, yet. > I look forward to what Paul can add on the subject. > The statement in the charter implies that virtual circuit approaches to > handling middleboxes require coordination of all entities involved with > a given circuit, which may limit the ability of a middlebox to make > local decisions. In fact, virtual circuits (VCs) crossing composite point-to-point links need no signaling with intermediate link boxes (e.g. two neighbor VC-switches across an IEEE-802 MAC-layer can ignore MAC-layer switches). Also, an X.25 VC-switch can reset its link(s) to any neighbor(s) at any time. It is guaranteed that no VC thus cleared will ever reappear. In my understanding, a TCP session on a LAN-NAT-WAN-LAN path can usefully be viewed as a VC, established along an EME path. On it, VC label switching is performed on combinations of IP addresses and TCP/UDP port numbers. It may not be desirable to limit our scope to virtual > circuits because we also want to consider off-path signaling, but > clearly there will be some similarities in the signaling approach. IMHO, excluding the VC heritage would be counterproductive. VCs have been found inappropriate largely based on the end-to-end argument. But the EME group raison d'etre is precisely to go beyond the E2E paradigm. While the EME scope should clearly not be "limited to" on-path signaling, it should not either "exclude" it, be it indirectly. In summary, I suggest that, unless a new explanation justifies it, the negative sentence about VCs, as it is, should explicitly be made ignorable (or better would be deleted if the chatter can be updated?). > > Tilman > > Rémi Després wrote: >> As author or co-author of the charter, could you be the one who >> provides some insight on the question below? >> RD >> >> >> -------- Message original -------- >> Sujet: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in the EME charter - >> need for clarification >> Date: Thu, 09 Nov 2006 16:45:26 +0100 >> De: Rémi Després <remi.despres@rd-iptech.com> >> Copie: eme@irtf.org >> Références: <45533DA6.30206@wanadoo.fr> >> >> The EME charter seems to me very pertinent, and I like its clarification >> of some real problems. >> Although I have been involved in Internet protocols for years, and have >> been active in the 70s.on virtual circuits (by the way operational >> worldwide, and very successful, in the 80s-early 90s), I don't >> understand the sentence of the charter: which says "Candidate protocols >> should avoid falling into the virtual circuit trap, where routers lose >> the ability to remedy failures locally". >> >> Could anyone, clarify what is meant? >> >> In particular,: is it understood that NATs have fallen into that trap, >> or have avoided it ? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Rémi Després >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> EME mailing list >> EME@irtf.org >> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eme >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ EME mailing list EME@irtf.org https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/eme
- [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in the E… Rémi Després
- Re: [Fwd: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentione… Rémi Després
- RE: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in t… Paul Francis
- Re: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in t… Rémi Després
- Re: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in t… Joe Touch
- Re: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in t… Scott W Brim
- Re: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in t… Rémi Després
- RE: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in t… Paul Francis
- Re: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in t… Rémi Després
- Re: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in t… Rémi Després
- Re: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in t… Rémi Després
- Re: [EME] The virtual circuit trap mentioned in t… Joe Touch
- [EME] transport recovery at the APP layer ? Rémi Després
- [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer ? Joe Touch
- RE: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Henry Sinnreich
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Joe Touch
- [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer ? Rémi Després
- RE: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Paul Francis
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Rémi Després
- RE: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Paul Francis
- [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer ? Joe Touch
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Joe Touch
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Yangwoo Ko
- [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer ? Rémi Després
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Saikat Guha
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Joe Touch
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Mark Baker
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Joe Touch
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Mark Baker
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Joe Touch
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Mark Baker
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Saikat Guha
- Re: [EME] Re: transport recovery at the APP layer… Joe Touch
- [EME] Relationship betwen Rémi Després
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- [EME] Re: TCP close semantics Joe Touch
- [EME] Re: TCP close semantics Rémi Després
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