Re: [EToSat] New Version Notification for draft-kuhn-quic-4-sat-04.txt

Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net> Thu, 23 April 2020 23:26 UTC

Return-Path: <huitema@huitema.net>
X-Original-To: etosat@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: etosat@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 620DF3A0966 for <etosat@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:26:28 -0700 (PDT)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.898
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.898 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7PgznPImuE8d for <etosat@ietfa.amsl.com>; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:26:24 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com (mx43-out1.antispamcloud.com [138.201.61.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64AA53A095D for <etosat@ietf.org>; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from xse294.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.40] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx169.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <huitema@huitema.net>) id 1jRlEW-000r7b-BI for etosat@ietf.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2020 01:26:20 +0200
Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 497YMp2hB7z1ksV for <etosat@ietf.org>; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:26:14 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [10.5.2.17] (helo=xmail07.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from <huitema@huitema.net>) id 1jRlEU-0000Da-7p for etosat@ietf.org; Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:26:14 -0700
Received: (qmail 15598 invoked from network); 23 Apr 2020 23:26:13 -0000
Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.107]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.43.26]) (envelope-sender <huitema@huitema.net>) by xmail07.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for <John.Border@hughes.com>; 23 Apr 2020 23:26:13 -0000
To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: Gorry Fairhust <gorry@erg.abdn.ac.uk>, Kuhn Nicolas <nicolas.kuhn@cnes.fr>, "etosat@ietf.org" <etosat@ietf.org>, "emile.stephan@orange.com" <emile.stephan@orange.com>, "Border, John" <John.Border@hughes.com>
References: <EFFE2C3A-7D18-4559-B221-579E6737675E@huitema.net> <32C9C992-6FBD-407D-9011-4FD15364DD04@eggert.org> <CAKKJt-fm8zgWzsVeTLwAZU_mxsbWXp9MhZETS1RUzG-T_J5iZQ@mail.gmail.com> <9538E602-FFF5-4C74-A53C-E6A31ABCF3DF@eggert.org>
From: Christian Huitema <huitema@huitema.net>
Autocrypt: addr=huitema@huitema.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= mQENBFIRX8gBCAC26usy/Ya38IqaLBSu33vKD6hP5Yw390XsWLaAZTeQR64OJEkoOdXpvcOS HWfMIlD5s5+oHfLe8jjmErFAXYJ8yytPj1fD2OdSKAe1TccUBiOXT8wdVxSr5d0alExVv/LO I/vA2aU1TwOkVHKSapD7j8/HZBrqIWRrXUSj2f5n9tY2nJzG9KRzSG0giaJWBfUFiGb4lvsy IaCaIU0YpfkDDk6PtK5YYzuCeF0B+O7N9LhDu/foUUc4MNq4K3EKDPb2FL1Hrv0XHpkXeMRZ olpH8SUFUJbmi+zYRuUgcXgMZRmZFL1tu6z9h6gY4/KPyF9aYot6zG28Qk/BFQRtj7V1ABEB AAG0J0NocmlzdGlhbiBIdWl0ZW1hIDxodWl0ZW1hQGh1aXRlbWEubmV0PokBOQQTAQIAIwUC UhFfyAIbLwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEJNDCbJVyA1yhbYH/1ud6x6m VqGIp0JcZUfSQO8w+TjugqxCyGNn+w/6Qb5O/xENxNQ4HaMQ5uSRK9n8WKKDDRSzwZ4syKKf wbkfj05vgFxrjCynVbm1zs2X2aGXh+PxPL/WHUaxzEP7KjYbLtCUZDRzOOrm+0LMktngT/k3 6+EZoLEM52hwwpIAzJoscyEz7QfqMOZtFm6xQnlvDQeIrHx0KUvwo/vgDLK3SuruG1CSHcR0 D24kEEUa044AIUKBS3b0b8AR7f6mP2NcnLpdsibtpabi9BzqAidcY/EjTaoea46HXALk/eJd 6OLkLE6UQe1PPzQC4jB7rErX2BxnSkHDw50xMgLRcl5/b1a5AQ0EUhFfyAEIAKp7Cp8lqKTV CC9QiAf6QTIjW+lie5J44Ad++0k8gRgANZVWubQuCQ71gxDWLtxYfFkEXjG4TXV/MUtnOliG 5rc2E+ih6Dg61Y5PQakm9OwPIsOx+2R+iSW325ngln2UQrVPgloO83QiUoi7mBJPbcHlxkhZ bd3+EjFxSLIQogt29sTcg2oSh4oljUpz5niTt69IOfZx21kf29NfDE+Iw56gfrxI2ywZbu5o G+d0ZSp0lsovygpk4jK04fDTq0vxjEU5HjPcsXC4CSZdq5E2DrF4nOh1UHkHzeaXdYR2Bn1Y wTePfaHBFlvQzI+Li/Q6AD/uxbTM0vIcsUxrv3MNHCUAEQEAAYkCPgQYAQIACQUCUhFfyAIb LgEpCRCTQwmyVcgNcsBdIAQZAQIABgUCUhFfyAAKCRC22tOSFDh1UOlBB/94RsCJepNvmi/c YiNmMnm0mKb6vjv43OsHkqrrCqJSfo95KHyl5Up4JEp8tiJMyYT2mp4IsirZHxz/5lqkw9Az tcGAF3GlFsj++xTyD07DXlNeddwTKlqPRi/b8sppjtWur6Pm+wnAHp0mQ7GidhxHccFCl65w uT7S/ocb1MjrTgnAMiz+x87d48n1UJ7yIdI41Wpg2XFZiA9xPBiDuuoPwFj14/nK0elV5Dvq 4/HVgfurb4+fd74PV/CC/dmd7hg0ZRlgnB5rFUcFO7ywb7/TvICIIaLWcI42OJDSZjZ/MAzz BeXm263lHh+kFxkh2LxEHnQGHCHGpTYyi4Z3dv03HtkH/1SI8joQMQq00Bv+RdEbJXfEExrT u4gtdZAihwvy97OPA2nCdTAHm/phkzryMeOaOztI4PS8u2Ce5lUB6P/HcGtK/038KdX5MYST Fn8KUDt4o29bkv0CUXwDzS3oTzPNtGdryBkRMc9b+yn9+AdwFEH4auhiTQXPMnl0+G3nhKr7 jvzVFJCRif3OAhEm4vmBNDE3uuaXFQnbK56GJrnqVN+KX5Z3M7X3fA8UcVCGOEHXRP/aubiw Ngawj0V9x+43kUapFp+nF69R53UI65YtJ95ec4PTO/Edvap8h1UbdEOc4+TiYwY1TBuIKltY 1cnrjgAWUh/Ucvr++/KbD9tD6C8=
Message-ID: <bc9cb433-4d42-2010-3cd9-a5ea1aea1919@huitema.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 16:26:02 -0700
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.6.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
In-Reply-To: <9538E602-FFF5-4C74-A53C-E6A31ABCF3DF@eggert.org>
Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="pgp-sha256"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="NcoZe5uYrchpxEVzZHm5GsCe6eVnaV8n7"
X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.40
X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24
Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com
X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: unsure
X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.10)
X-Recommended-Action: accept
X-Filter-ID: Mvzo4OR0dZXEDF/gcnlw0c6d8zDasFm/nDPEg7mmhmypSDasLI4SayDByyq9LIhVeNUR/BuiXRqj ur1IvOgVqETNWdUk1Ol2OGx3IfrIJKywOmJyM1qr8uRnWBrbSAGDYbC1vFNC/qFxauDStI0QV8RX qYbtEQV1z/L435ZRxFRVs/MvChw+YVH+aIe7JMX9+rYZvu7UEJiU3s27VgKHO7lwS3dBJTnTxDoD vBGGxph9w6EwXICYy0ePXtGEMhqrmZ/a0xedHgxK4bNgL90SSmU6UgOqKJ9sMwhVoOBGSAIboXtx P9OF0EfNs5TqNq2Yhy7LI0kfFnXdPP6btp4oBeJDeKRq5oPj2hFJhLx+qI3HlR3ootg7OlA3N5WN re/oppAGOX5cHTu1yz4pRT/9FGrxEaaKeSxe0Wrx6M4G5/WoLsdfEoJI0BNUQ4KpaNyNCwGqOUcw rXf55E8Tb8bmXq4yH8StrboPphDtmrtUkwkDMc9xayd+oZJo2heFY+g6kVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw 5rdY2rW50fd1ekaDpmIWc1Vmt3mnxMTQMQWbvBqEXskTQn6USYs98Imn+lZXe3dwYfgVB1xo6dCf BaU/iegBU8ZoVN8Qrp33SLbI6vQ4dJWg4nuZrRf7bMi0WRR6pZ+nWcLP9/t0e6dEXnzvb7jobc5X 0SU68ek9wyYNR7nSKrZbQsAM8hGlAkv+YXlQiOyIRazNjLvclnGzlTC8ZgkR3laIWqvAxiBHuIuS y5fCAlEkZ10lo8SQk2mRZGlRQpcXEVACVO3tx78u0bG7If2TCVTd8P79iu1cay80HOVRqnbK4KUD hAD+yvrZykV7rxaJoVffncYFDRVcOLM39ai6q8vsybUxAP8nzeTCxkE6pOT2JOYIJd4MvQ0Nf4Ec bvHO1diDanHV9KirFAIIecsyj+YNTo81GR+jDXFsz/ZQnbbTizvwlZsrbltGiZoUh+c+5pFVgpT1 b21uZVckGp0ccOa2XhkGbmsUNPNkere1WheNsVXmhO8BzADiszcWR9bz/SDtF09JpSbuuCeiIDK0 C/0=
X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/etosat/YB32d_jFDgXYyb8kmgqHVErU-DA>
Subject: Re: [EToSat] New Version Notification for draft-kuhn-quic-4-sat-04.txt
X-BeenThere: etosat@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: "The EToSat list is a non-WG mailing list used to discuss performance implications of running encrypted transports such as QUIC over satellite." <etosat.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/etosat>, <mailto:etosat-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/etosat/>
List-Post: <mailto:etosat@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:etosat-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/etosat>, <mailto:etosat-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Apr 2020 23:26:29 -0000

On 4/23/2020 6:20 AM, Lars Eggert wrote:
> On 2020-4-23, at 16:14, Spencer Dawkins at IETF <spencerdawkins.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Just to avoid the "bring us a rock" scenario ("no, that's not the right rock, please bring us another rock"), is there a better resource for people to be looking at than https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-irtf-iccrg-tcpeval-01?
> That's probably (and unfortunately) the most recent. The paper (see citations) is even older.

Clearly my results so far are preliminary -- showing that a combination
of changes could work, but not passing the gauntlet of tests listed in
the TCP Eval draft. Given my limited resource, it will take some time to
actually do that. I need to prioritize, and I have a couple of questions:

1) The tests in the TCP Eval draft are largely focused on long term
equilibrium. In my proposal, I am mostly looking at ramp up time from
the start of the connection. Once the connection has found the initial
sstresh (or equivalent), it will behave just like BBR. Is there specific
guidance on the evaluation of the ramping up scenario?

2) The battery of tests covers a large number of configurations. The
proposal is very specifically aiming at long delay links, defined as min
RTT larger than some threshold. Is there any advantage to also testing
for the low delay configurations?

3) The draft states that the traces uses for calibrating TMIX are
available at http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/trac/wiki/ICCRG.
<http://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/trac/wiki/ICCRG> I cannot find
them at that location. Where should I look?

I also have a puzzling question regarding the purpose of the tests. The
TCP Eval draft follows the classic approach that Internet stability
depends on well behaved transports, and that this good behavior should
be documented by a large battery of tests. I got some fairly consistent
feedback last year, after worrying that free wheeling innovation in
transport protocols might end up having bad consequences for the
Internet. A number of distinguished colleagues lined up at the mic and
explained that my fears were exaggerated, that the Internet was very
robust, and that I should not worry. So, which is which? Should I worry
about consequences for others, or is selfishness OK?

Of course, even assuming that selfishness is OK, I need to do additional
tests to verify that the proposal still results in better performance in
the presence of competing traffic, at various data rates, or in the
presence of delay jitter. I already perform the tests for several data
rates, and with presence or absence of packet losses -- as specified in
the Etosat draft. My first priority is to add the delay jitter tests, as
they have a critical impact on bandwidth measurement.

-- Christian Huitema