Re: [Extra] Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-extra-sieve-special-use-04: (with COMMENT)

Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu> Thu, 10 January 2019 21:46 UTC

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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 15:45:58 -0600
From: Benjamin Kaduk <kaduk@mit.edu>
To: Ned Freed <ned.freed@mrochek.com>
CC: The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, <extra@ietf.org>, <draft-ietf-extra-sieve-special-use@ietf.org>, <yaojk@cnnic.cn>, <extra-chairs@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [Extra] Benjamin Kaduk's Yes on draft-ietf-extra-sieve-special-use-04: (with COMMENT)
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On Wed, Jan 09, 2019 at 11:31:27PM -0800, Ned Freed wrote:
> > Benjamin Kaduk has entered the following ballot position for
> > draft-ietf-extra-sieve-special-use-04: Yes
> 
> > When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
> > email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
> > introductory paragraph, however.)
> 
> 
> > Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
> > for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.
> 
> 
> > The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
> > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-extra-sieve-special-use/
> 
> 
> 
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > COMMENT:
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> > I'm balloting Yes because this document seems like it is going to do the
> > right thing in helping to keep sieve up to date with IMAP.  But I do still
> > have a few comments.
> 
> > Section 4
> 
> >                      Implementations SHOULD handle an invalid special-
> >    use flag in the same way as an invalid mailbox name is handled.  The
> 
> > (Does "invalid" mean "syntactically invalid" or "nonexistent" or something
> > else?  Presumably this is just a sieve convention that I've not been
> > exposed to yet...)
> 
> Given that the preceeding sentence in the paragraph is "The special-use flag
> specified with the ":specialuse" argument MUST conform to the "use-attr" syntax
> described in Section 6 of RFC6154 [SIEVE-MAILBOX]." I think it's actually
> pretty clear that this is talking about syntax and not something. I suppose
> changing it to say "syntactically invalid" would not hurt, but I don't really
> think it's necessary given the context.

Okay.

> What actually concerns me more here is the MUST in the first sentence. This use
> of compliance language strikes me as misplaced. Sieve scripts are specified by
> users one way or another and say what they say; when we talk about compliance
> in these documents we're talking about what a Sieve implementation has to do,
> like the SHOULD in the second sentence, which is actually dealing with the
> case where the MUST is violated.

It's probably clearer to say something descriptive like "[...] flag
specified with the ':specialuse' argument conforms to the 'use-attr' syntax
described in [...]"

-Benjamin

> >                                                    However, while the
> >    set of mailboxes to which the involved special-use flags are assigned
> >    remains unchanged, implementations SHOULD ensure that the mailbox
> >    choice is made consistently, so that the same mailbox is used every
> >    time.  Conversely, the chosen mailbox MAY change once the special-use
> >    flag assignments that are relevant for the mailbox choice are changed
> >    (usually by user interaction).
> 
> >    If delivery to the special-use mailbox fails for reasons not relating
> >    to its existence, the Sieve interpreter MUST NOT subsequently attempt
> >    delivery in the indicated default mailbox as a fall-back.  Instead,
> >    it MUST proceed exactly as it does in case the ":specialuse" argument
> >    is absent and delivery to the mailbox named by its positional
> >    argument fails.  This prevents the situation where messages are
> >    unexpectedly spread over two mailboxes in case transient or
> >    intermittent delivery failures occur.
> 
> > It seems a little inconsistent to only avoid spreading messages over two
> > mailboxes as a SHOULD for when multiple options exist but a MUST for
> > transient delivery failure.  But presumably this has already been
> > well-discussed in the WG and I shouldn't try to reopen it.
> 
> Yes it has. I am not happy with it, but given the semantics of special-use in
> IMAP I don't see how it can be handled any other way. For example, if someone
> has the same special-use flag on two different mailboxes, then removes them
> both, then some time later puts them back, it's just not reasonable to expect
> an implementation to remember the original ordering and return to it.
> 
> > Section 4.2
> 
> > The IMAP example should probably use RFC 6761 domains.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> 				Ned