Re: [Extra] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-extra-sieve-fcc-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)

Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm> Thu, 10 January 2019 16:36 UTC

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From: Alexey Melnikov <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>
To: Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>
Cc: extra@ietf.org, yaojk@cnnic.cn, draft-ietf-extra-sieve-fcc@ietf.org, The IESG <iesg@ietf.org>, extra-chairs@ietf.org
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2019 16:36:06 +0000
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/extra/zTiTQ-365iiZ_s6fXYdsqdHeeoI>
Subject: Re: [Extra] Ben Campbell's Discuss on draft-ietf-extra-sieve-fcc-08: (with DISCUSS and COMMENT)
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Hi Ben,

On Thu, Jan 10, 2019, at 4:27 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>> On Jan 10, 2019, at 10:23 AM, Alexey Melnikov
>> <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>; wrote:>> 
>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2019, at 3:29 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>>> On Jan 10, 2019, at 9:14 AM, Alexey Melnikov
>>>> <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>; wrote:>>>> 
>>>> Hi Ben,
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Jan 10, 2019, at 2:56 PM, Ben Campbell wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jan 10, 2019, at 2:42 AM, Alexey Melnikov
>>>>>> <aamelnikov@fastmail.fm>; wrote:>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Hi Ben,
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 9 Jan 2019, at 21:51, Ben Campbell <ben@nostrum.com>; wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ------>>>>>>> DISCUSS:
>>>>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>>> ------>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Thanks for the work on this. I plan to ballot "yes", but have
>>>>>>> one item I think>>>>>>> needs to be discussed first:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> The security considerations say that this extension adds no new
>>>>>>> considerations>>>>>>> not already present in [RFC5228], [RFC5230], [RFC5435], and
>>>>>>> [RFC6131]. I'm not>>>>>>> sure that that is true.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It seems like the ability to insert a copy of message into a
>>>>>>> mailbox might have>>>>>>> security and/or privacy considerations.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Can you give me an idea of what you have in mind here, other than
>>>>>> putting the user (Sieve script owner) over quota?>>>>> 
>>>>> I can’t say that I know what the security considerations might
>>>>> be; I’m>>>>> just skeptical that the answer is “no new considerations." The
>>>>> authors>>>>> of 5228 thought “fileinto” could be dangerous. Do we know why?
>>>> 
>>>> I don't remember now, even though I participated in the discussion.>>>>
>>>>>> In particular, what are the possible privacy implications?>>>>> 
>>>>> Could there be issues with, say, shared mailboxes?
>>>> 
>>>> Possibly. I can write something about this.
>>>>
>>>>> Or storing cleartext for mail that would be sent encrypted?>>>> 
>>>> I can't think of how this is going to be possible. Sieve
>>>> notifications/vacation replies can disclose private information
>>>> from Sieve script owner, but storing such messages doesn't leak any
>>>> more information (ignore shared folders, I agree this might be an
>>>> issue), because such messages will be stored in one of owner's
>>>> mailboxes .>>> 
>>> Doesn’t that make the safety of storing the message dependent on
>>> having reasonable protections for the owner’s mailboxes?>> IMAP access already requires TLS, so all message retrieval is already
>> over encrypted channel.> 
> Is sieve limited to working only over IMAP?
Sieve can talk directly to the mailstore over local API, IPC, some
proprietary protocol, etc. This is not in scope for this document.
> 
> Even if “yes”, that's a data-at-rest
How messages are stored in any particular mailstore is outside the scope
of both Sieve or IMAP. This was never specified in any RFC and this is
not something unique to FCC anyway. But if you can suggest some specific
text to add, the WG can discuss it.
>  vs data-in-motion question.
> 
>> 
>> If you meant something else, can you please elaborate?
>>>> 
>>>>> I suspect the answers may be more IMAP related than sieve
>>>>> related, but>>>>> even that might suggest citing something IMAP related.
>>>> 
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>> Alexey
Best Regards,
Alexey