Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft-yevstifeyev-ftp-uri-scheme
Mykyta Yevstifeyev <evnikita2@gmail.com> Tue, 24 May 2011 14:29 UTC
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Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:30:01 +0300
From: Mykyta Yevstifeyev <evnikita2@gmail.com>
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To: John C Klensin <john-ietf@jck.com>
References: <4DD89A18.3090105@gmail.com> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1105221515140.5566@tvnag.unkk.fr> <99F2C6CA27936593F2C4F5C5@PST.JCK.COM> <4DDAB342.8080205@gmail.com> <3DA670729719DD82A5233DAE@PST.JCK.COM>
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Cc: uri-review@ietf.org, ftpext@ietf.org, Daniel Stenberg <daniel@haxx.se>
Subject: Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft-yevstifeyev-ftp-uri-scheme
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Hi John, Daniel, all, Thanks for your responses once more. See my comments in-line. 24.05.2011 6:03, John C Klensin wrote: > > --On Monday, May 23, 2011 22:19 +0300 Mykyta Yevstifeyev > <evnikita2@gmail.com> wrote: > >> 23.05.2011 20:53, John C Klensin wrote: >>> --On Sunday, May 22, 2011 19:45 +0200 Daniel Stenberg >>> <daniel@haxx.se> wrote: >>> [ . . . ] >>> >>> Daniel, >>> >>> I think we really need to be careful about your line of >>> reasoning here (whether 1738 is correct or not). CWD was >>> defined for environments in which not only was the path >>> separation identifier unknown (take your pick among "/", "\", >> ... >> Complete re-specifying of 'ftp' URI scheme seems quite >> interesting; yet, it's too radical. The scheme in its >> existing view has been used in the Internet for years. I >> don't think folks will be encouraged to change their apps to >> suit new syntax/semantics and will continue using the old one, >> even if it is formally deprecated. RFC 1738 was written at >> ... > Actually, modulo some very small differences in syntax and > semantics, the concept of a one-line FTP invocation goes back at > least to TENEX. That one-line approach has been more or less > ftp<host> <path> > and, modulo syntactic sugar and the user and password > identifiers (which, as you point out, aren't used very often > with the URI form), the URI just reflects that model. > > But this is exactly where we have a philosophical difference. I > hope I've got this right, but it seems to me: > > -- You say that if we make any substantive changes, then no one > will pay any attention to what we say and will keep using what > was specified in 1738. Yes, I've said this. > -- I respond by saying, "Ok, if that is the case, then updating/ > replacing the definition in 1738 has no value other than dealing > with the half-obsolete status of 1738 itself. And dealing with > that doesn't have nearly enough value to justify the effort of > producing a new document and getting it right." See below. > -- Daniel says that a lot of implementations don't do what 1738 > says anyway, so repeating what it says is silly. (I hope that > interpretation isn't too far off the mark.) Agreed with this as well. > -- I respond by saying "Ok, if that is the case, we have a mess > on our hands and it is irresponsible to produce a new spec that > does not clean up the mess. So, either no new spec or a > cleanup. Also see below. > -- If you respond to that by saying that you are convinced that > no one would pay any attention to a cleaned up and complete > specification either, then my answer would be that we are > finished: there is no value in spending any time on a new > specification that we are convinced, a priori, that no one is > going to pay any attention to. I didn't want to say that no one would care attention to an updated specification if it was published. Some would probably do; and the new 'ftp' URI scheme might be Ok enough to abandon the old one. However I do think it makes sense to document the 'ftp' URI *as it is currently used* on the Standards Track. What I really deem fine to clean up the mess, as you say, is: (1) specifying the scheme borrowing the 1738 basis on Standards Track as it is currently used correcting major and minor flaws/uncertainties and allowing 1738 to approach its "obsolete" status; (2) making up the Experimental document proposing a new, experimental form of the 'ftp' URI scheme, cleaning up most of the mess in existing specification; (3) observing whether people are satisfied by new proposed syntax or are Ok with the old one; (4) deciding whether to change the official spec using the new form or leaving the old one. This, I think, will allow to propose a new form without having made radical changes to Standards Track, but see if it is really fine. So I should agree that updating (in fact, re-specifying) 'ftp' URI scheme is certainly necessary, but it should be done in other way, as I proposed above. Now for Daniel's comments. > And that is where we probably agree to disagree, since neither > of us is likely to convince the other. > > Daniel wrote... > >> Yes, perhaps. The question is then: are we doing an updated >> FTP URI scheme? >> >> If we're not, what's the point of just repeating RFC1738 with >> its flaws once again? > Up to this point at least, I think we are 100% in agreement. I agree as well. >> Isn't there a middle-ground that at >> least maintains most of what RFC1738 says but that >> clarifies/corrects the biggest mistakes? > Probably. But then we need to get consensus about what is a > "biggest mistake" and, in particular, whether some of the > interpretations of 1738 which you describe are the desired > behavior or just broken. As one trivial example, Mykyta and I > seem to think that interpreting "ftp://servername.example.com/" > as an instruction to send "CWD" without an argument is broken; > the implementations you cite seem to differ. So there isn't > 100% agreement on that point. > > So, even if we are trying to just "maintain[s] most of what > RFC1738 says but that clarifies/corrects the biggest mistakes", > we have issues with getting agreement, not just copying out and > editing some text. That, in turn, makes the "clarify and > correct" job less different from "updating" than might be > assumed. My personal opinion is that this way is the most satisfactory, following the golden mean principle. And I think it will be possible to reach an agreement on the necessary changes to 1738 specification. >> If we *are* updating the FTP URI scheme, then surely we have >> more work to do... > Indeed. And, despite my comments above, I'm painfully aware > that figuring out how to accommodate required commands that are > not in the 1738 definition, to think about paths and parameters, > and to allow to extension for new commands without having to > write a new definition of the URI each time is much more work > than trying to copy and clarify the 1738 material. While I'd > be opposed to it, I can see the sense in a "copy and clarify but > don't specify anything new or different" model, I'm really glad to hear this :-) That's what my draft tries to do. As for the expectations for more radical changes, I think they will really appear soon (see my comment #1). > especially if we > hope that an update and revision would come along in the future. > >>> There is obviously a high-level issue in all of this, which >>> is whether it either acceptable to the community or a good >>> use of IETF time to take an old spec and update it in some >>> minor ways, ignoring known issues because the new spec >>> doesn't make things any worse. My position is that it is not >>> a good use of time and may be irresponsible. >> I agree with you John. >> >> I think repeating old known mistakes in a new spec is a very >> bad idea and I would be very much opposed to that. Even if it >> doesn't "make things worse" in the spec, a fresh spec kind of >> makes the old mistakes more wrong in my view. > Concur. And, fwiw, it is procedurally almost impossible because > the requirements for Proposed Standard include the "no known > technical omissions" rule. An "old known mistake" is certainly > a known technical omission with regard to that rule. While the > IESG can waive the rule, concluding that a new spec is useful > and necessary enough to justify doing so when there is an > existing published spec would seem to me to require a trip > beyond the plausible. By the way, another requirement for PS is (citing 2026): > A Proposed Standard specification is generally stable, has resolved > known design choices, [ . . . ] and, thus, changing the spec radically will certainly fail to suit this rule. But, the way I proposed at the beginning of the message is certainly fine to allow the new ftp URI scheme syntax receive these "design choices". So, as far as I can see, we all have reached the following consensus: (1) repeating 1738 is certainly a bad idea; (2) repeating 1738 and correcting all known major and minor issues should be fine; (3a) 'ftp' URI scheme really needs more fundamental work; but (3b) /am not sure if all agree/ it should be done in other way. Mykyta Yevstifeyev > john > >
- [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft-yev… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft… Daniel Stenberg
- Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft… John C Klensin
- Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft… Mykyta Yevstifeyev
- Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft… Peter Saint-Andre
- Re: [ftpext] Soliciting comments/reviews on draft… Mykyta Yevstifeyev