Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group proposal
Kenneth Voort <listbounce-01@voort.ca> Sun, 03 July 2011 20:29 UTC
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Date: Sun, 03 Jul 2011 16:29:17 -0400
From: Kenneth Voort <listbounce-01@voort.ca>
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Cc: Doug Barton <dougb@dougbarton.us>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Subject: Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group proposal
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 11-07-02 9:31 PM, Doug Barton wrote: > On 07/01/2011 14:17, Keith Moore wrote: >> On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:13 PM, Doug Barton wrote: >> >>> This is an area that we very clearly do not need to get involved in >>> because it will solve itself due to market forces. Right now there >>> is no IPv6-only content that anyone cares about. When that changes, >>> users will start demanding that their provider give them access to >>> it, or vote with their feet. When that happens, the end-to-end (or perhaps site-to-site) model of the Internet will be broken. I would argue that the Internet is more about "reachability" than "content" or "conversation". When the day comes when it is no longer technically possible to reach any Internet-connected host who wants me to reach it, from anywhere, the Internet will be broken. While IPv6 has the promise to fix a great many things, it also carries with it the threat of breaking that fundamental assumption upon which the Internet is built. >> Whenever people talk about the Internet as if it were just about >> "access to content", I have to wonder. The Internet has always >> been more about conversation than content. > > The overwhelming majority of Internet users are consumers of content. Some of that content is stuff > like Skype, instant messaging, etc. > > The overwhelming majority of businesses that make the Internet work are the content providers, and > the ISPs that enable the consumers of that content to reach it. > > Failure to recognize these 2 critical facts leads to producing standards documents that have no > relevance in the real world. I agree with you to a point. Where I see a problem is in *new* content producers coming online. It's not possible anymore for there to be another service provider such as YouTube or Netflix, or for that matter another ISP like Comcast or BT, with the IPv4 space there is left. Until and unless we see massive IPv6 deployment we're stuck with the players we've got. Nobody's going to build another Netflix and just wait for the ISP's to get the users to them. The transition should be engineered, not simply left to existing market forces to evolve. > >>> To summarize my main point once again, there is nothing for the >>> IETF to do here, the problem will take care of itself. >> >> Quite the contrary. We still don't have a good transition mechanism >> that HOMENET could specify. > > And as I pointed out in the bits of my message that you snipped, we don't need one. > > > Doug Perhaps, perhaps not. But I do think the behavior of an IPv6 network/host/CPE in the absence of IPv6 connectivity, or where not all of [more than one] providers is IPv6, should be defined, at the least. We will otherwise see some surely unpredictable and incompatible behavior. Should it be assumed that the only IPv6 provider must therefore be the default IPv6 route? What if that provider is the power company? Or should a default IPv6 route *always* be established via the same interface as the default IPv4 route? Should home networks establish IPv6 connectivity where none exists? I would also argue that some method of reaching the IPv6 Internet without provider-supplied IPv6 should be considered and/or recommended. Is it within HOMENET's scope to /encourage/ IPv6 deployment, or merely /facilitate/ it? We agree that there will be a day when not every host on the Internet will be reachable from every other host. I think what we disagree on is the scope and severity of the problem, and when it will happen. It is my hope that most people never hear the term "IPv6". - -- Kenneth Voort - kenneth {at} voort <SPAMGUARD> {dot} ca FDF1 6265 EBAB C05C FD06 1AED 158E 14D6 37CD E87F | pgp encrypted email preferred -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iEYEARECAAYFAk4Q0R0ACgkQFY4U1jfN6H/6pwCfePQLx1r9j7bQsCw8iK2aTGM7 sEsAni5VvOMZIPyJHqMWUr/Gba4vHzOq =fq54 -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
- Re: [fun] HOMENET working group proposal Jari Arkko
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Jari Arkko
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Fernando Gont
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Mark Townsley
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Jari Arkko
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Fernando Gont
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Pascal Thubert (pthubert)
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Fernando Gont
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Stephen [kiwin] PALM
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Keith Moore
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Stephen [kiwin] PALM
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Weil, Jason
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Stephen [kiwin] PALM
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Mark Townsley
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Keith Moore
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Fernando Gont
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Keith Moore
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Ralph Droms (rdroms)
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Stephen [kiwin] PALM
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Ralph Droms (rdroms)
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Mark Townsley
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Keith Moore
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… james woodyatt
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Edward Arthurs
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Mark Andrews
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… james woodyatt
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Mikael Abrahamsson
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Mark Townsley
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Mark Townsley
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Martin Focazio
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… JP Vasseur (jvasseur)
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Keith Moore
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… james woodyatt
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Keith Moore
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Kenneth Voort
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Keith Moore
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Keith Moore
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Doug Barton
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Noel Chiappa
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… james woodyatt
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Robert Raszuk
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Doug Barton
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Keith Moore
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Kenneth Voort
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Erik Kline
- Re: [fun] [homegate] HOMENET working group propos… Keith Moore