Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments
Niels ten Oever <niels@article19.org> Fri, 11 March 2016 14:58 UTC
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Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 14:58:27 +0000
From: Niels ten Oever <niels@article19.org>
To: Jose Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es>
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Subject: Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments
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Thanks for this Jose, I aim to review this in the coming week. Best, NielsOn 8 Mar 2016 8:25 a.m., Jose Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es> wrote: > > Hi Niels, > > According to your review, we have built a new version of the draft. We have not uploaded it yet to the IETF web page. > > This e-mail contains three attachments: > > - These are your general comments, and our responses: General_Comments_Review_Niels.txt > > - These are the detailed comments ([JS] means Jose Saldana), added to your review (marked with "#"): draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-03 edit NtO_JS2.txt > > - And this would be the new version of the draft: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-03c.txt > > > Thank you very much! > > Jose > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Niels ten Oever > > Enviado el: martes, 02 de febrero de 2016 18:11 > > Para: Jose Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es>; gaia@irtf.org > > CC: 'Javier Simó' <javier.simo@urjc.es>; irsg@irtf.org > > Asunto: Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network- > > deployments > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hash: SHA256 > > > > Hi Jose, > > > > Thanks for this. Reply inline: > > > > On 02/02/2016 01:44 PM, Jose Saldana wrote: > > > Dear Niels, > > > > > > First of all, thank you very much for your detailed review. As said > > > today, your comments will be useful for building an improved version. > > > > > > > My pleasure! > > > > > > > But I think here is something we should decide now: what to do > > > about "deployment experiences", i.e. point 4 of your review. > > > > > >>>>> 4. It could perhaps be interesting to provide some > > >>>>> additional information on actual alternative network > > >>>>> deployments, perhaps by providing some case studies and, > > >>>>> on the basis of these, a set of best practices / > > >>>>> recommendations for specific situations. > > > > > > As Javier says, we have discussed this possibility in the GAIA > > > meeting in Prague > > > (https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/minutes/minutes-93-gaia): > > > > > > "Lixia Zhang: The Internet didn’t start as a community effort. On > > > the draft, what is the main purpose? I’m interested in what you > > > have learned, and what advice you may have. > > > > > > Niels ten Oever: This is a great overview, but how will you set > > > boundaries. There are lots of handbook materials that could be > > > linked to, to avoid making this draft grow to 100s of pages. In > > > particular we could define more on centralised v. decentralised > > > approaches. > > > > > > Jane Coffin: Energy is also important for rural areas. > > > > > > Mat: I think the original motivation was to get a definition of > > > “Alternative Networks”, it’s not scoped to be 100s of pages, but > > > more can we define what we mean as Alternative Networks, and then > > > provide examples. Lixia’s suggestion of looking at learning > > > outcomes, could be a future document that may be useful." > > > > > > > > > We also talked about that in the list, and we (more or less) > > > agreed on this solution: to first focus on a "taxonomy" draft, and > > > leave "deployment experiences" for future work. > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/gaia/current/msg00831.html > > > > > > In fact, we already removed some content from the draft, as it was > > > related to "deployment experiences". See parts removed from Section > > > 4 in these two versions: > > > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network- > > deployments-01&url2=draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-00 > > > > > > > > > > > And we have also asked for volunteers for the "deployment > > > experiences" draft: > > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/gaia/current/msg00916.html > > > > > > > > > So my opinion is that we should avoid including this in the > > > present document. As you said in Prague, it is a matter of defining > > > some boundaries on the scope of the document. What do you think? > > > > > > > I would leave that for the authors and the group to decide. But AFAIK > > there are a few major deployments / projects out there, such as > > Freifunk (Germany), Guifi (Catalunia), Rhizomatica (Mexico), and > > perhaps Commotion (Tunisia, Redhook, Congo). Referencing these could > > bring the draft closer to actual practices (and with that increase > > relevance). Another approach could be providing a concrete example for > > every topology you define under 4. > > > > I completely agree with you that deployment experiences should not go > > into this draft, that would be too much. The same is true for > > providing an exhaustive list of implementations. > > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > Hope this helps, > > > > Niels > > > > > > > > Jose > > > > > > > > >> -----Mensaje original----- De: gaia > > >> [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Javier Simó Enviado > > >> el: lunes, 01 de febrero de 2016 14:09 Para: gaia@irtf.org > > >> Asunto: Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: > > >> draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network- deployments > > >> > > >> For the most important points (the most detailed ones), there are > > >> a few good interdisciplinary people in this lists with a > > >> background in development studies. I guess that it is just a > > >> matter of these people polishing the text. > > >> > > >> For point 4, ... well, the decission after Prague was to TAKE > > >> OUT the experiences and build another document. If experiences > > >> are required in here, then, we should reverse that decission and > > >> pilot a controlled introduction of best practices / case studies > > >> in the appropriate subsections. > > >> > > >> Best Javier > > >> > > >> El 01/02/16 a las 13:58, Jose Saldana escribió: > > >>> Thank you very much, Niels! > > >>> > > >>> We will take your comments into account in order to build an > > >>> improved version of > > >> the draft. > > >>> > > >>> Best regards, > > >>> > > >>> Jose > > >>> > > >>>> -----Mensaje original----- De: gaia > > >>>> [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Mat Ford Enviado > > >>>> el: lunes, 01 de febrero de 2016 13:27 Para: Niels ten > > >>>> Oever <niels@article19.org>; > > >>>> draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network- deployments@ietf.org CC: > > >>>> gaia <gaia@irtf.org>; Internet Research Steering Group > > >>>> <irsg@irtf.org> Asunto: Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: > > >>>> draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network- deployments > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks very much for the detailed review Niels, it is > > >>>> valuable. > > >>>> > > >>>> Authors - please discuss how you would like to address these > > >>>> comments and let Niels and myself know. If there is a need > > >>>> for further discussion, please let’s keep that on > > >>>> gaia@irtf.org. > > >>>> > > >>>> Mat > > >>>> > > >>>>> On 30 Jan 2016, at 23:35, Niels ten Oever > > >>>>> <niels@article19.org> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Dear all, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Please find my review of > > >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deploy > > me > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > nt s-03.txt below. This is my first IRSG review, so please bear with > > >>>>> me. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I mostly followed > > >>>>> https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5743#section-2.2 and > > >>>>> academic review practices, but please let me know where I > > >>>>> might have misstepped. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I hope this is useful. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 0. The topic of the draft is very relevant and timely and > > >>>>> brings together many different angles that are needed to > > >>>>> address the multidisciplinary nature of access, the > > >>>>> Internet, and community owned > > >> networks. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 1. The issue of the digital divide is approached from a > > >>>>> 'development studies' paradigm (e.g. developing > > >>>>> countries), quite some scientific literature has been > > >>>>> published about this topic. Most current literature > > >>>>> acknowledges that for instance term 'developing country' is > > >>>>> problematic because it assumes that all countries are on a > > >>>>> similar trajectory, from 'underdeveloped' to 'western'. > > >>>>> Empirical data shows that this is not the case. More > > >>>>> accurate would be to address differential developmental > > >>>>> trajectories by referring to the Global North vs. the > > >>>>> Global South, or using other frames. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Also terms like 'Digital Divide', 'Data Revolution', > > >>>>> 'Information Society' as well as the 'WSIS process' have > > >>>>> been dissected, discussed and interpreted in quite a > > >>>>> variety of ways. it might be good to engage with the > > >>>>> literature on this if you would like to use these terms, > > >>>>> and if so, refer to the relevant sources. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Same is true for the method or model of knowledge transfer > > >>>>> that is mentioned in the draft. At several places it is > > >>>>> implied that knowledge travels from North to South and > > >>>>> from Urban to Rural, which might be a one dimensional way > > >>>>> of representing a quite multifaceted process of technology > > >>>>> appropriation and development. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In terms of methodology: you are clearly coming at this > > >>>>> problem from a multidisciplinary approach. Which is great, > > >>>>> considering the multidisciplinary nature of the Internet > > >>>>> and the problem you are addressing. However, if you do > > >>>>> decide to use concepts from different fields and > > >>>>> disciplines (like for instance urban and rural from urban > > >>>>> planning, demand and provision from economics or the > > >>>>> digital divide from sociology) it is important to make this > > >>>>> explicit. I would suggest adding a sub-section in which you > > >>>>> explain how you built your multidisciplinary research > > >>>>> method and why you use the concepts you applied. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 2. There is a lot of doubling between abstract and > > >>>>> introduction. I recommend reducing the abstract. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 3. The discussion under point 1. and 2. is maybe not > > >>>>> necessary for achieving the goal of providing a a taxonomy > > >>>>> of alternative network deployments. However, Maybe the > > >>>>> first part could be shorter. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> 4. It could perhaps be interesting to provide some > > >>>>> additional information on actual alternative network > > >>>>> deployments, perhaps by providing some case studies and, > > >>>>> on the basis of these, a set of best practices / > > >>>>> recommendations for specific situations. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> In the attached file more inline editorial comments and > > >>>>> suggestions are provided. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Best, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Niels > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> -- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Article 19 www.article19.org > > >>>>> > > >>>>> PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 > > >>>>> 636D 68E9 > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Niels ten Oever Head of Digital > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Article 19 www.article19.org > > >>>>> > > >>>>> PGP fingerprint 8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2 > > >>>>> 636D 68E9 > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On 01/14/2016 12:39 PM, Mat Ford wrote: > > >>>>>> Hi folks, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> The GAIA RG has successfully concluded an RG Last Call > > >>>>>> for the document > > >>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-net > > wo > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > rk > > >>>>>>> -deployments/ > > >>>>>> As document shepherd I’m now looking for someone from > > >>>>>> the IRSG to review > > >>>> the document. Any volunteers? > > >>>>>> If no one volunteers, Lisandro Granville is top of the > > >>>>>> list: > > >>>>>> https://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/trac/wiki/IRSGReviewLog > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > Mat > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> <draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-03 edit > > >>>>> NtO.txt> > > >>>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing > > >>>> list gaia@irtf.org > > >>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing > > >>> list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > >> > > >> -- > > >> > > >> --------------------------------------------------- Fco. Javier > > >> Simó Reigadas <javier.simo@urjc.es> Subdirector de Ord. Docente > > >> ETS de Ingeniería de Telecomunicación D-204, Departamental III > > >> Camino Del Molino, s/n - 28943 Fuenlabrada (Madrid) Tel: > > >> 914888428, Fax: 914887500 Web personal: > > >> http://www.tsc.urjc.es/~javier.simo > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list > > >> gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia > > > > > > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > Version: GnuPG v2 > > > > iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJWsOMwAAoJEAi1oPJjbWjp0igIAI0GkDWZmcvgKSujx+tPhl > > hg > > 3n4Zmrqbc1Ez8kBVbHT2iv15D2FccCOJy9FILZ7sIyk1VWtEyG4zfKU/wYBQQay > > z > > XRgH+6Ix5ovhinx8dcH3eQMdq8OLWf43Oe4I3E2Kc5F/Pq5O12Lhb8NMa74ZBW > > VN > > KxZGo2xyeVsA4jjUSfXiiq2xAyaM7SEFDMUFSjV4qOsJUChmXSaRx27z+FpiCm > > 5G > > KGYG3w5lvBs5vsnqHhzZkpsW706NFZDuJqpIX3yNmzNUCQBhkHmhPiMsXQBu > > eVlf > > mN6RVGIDDzgV744ktUvG2zTNa+YTJb382kelp7xsDq7yFPGTFkaFV/bVImMQLf > > M= > > =eGYs > > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > gaia mailing list > > gaia@irtf.org > > https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >
- Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: draft-irtf-gai… Mat Ford
- Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: draft-irtf-gai… Mat Ford
- Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: draft-irtf-gai… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: draft-irtf-gai… Javier Simó
- Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: draft-irtf-gai… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: draft-irtf-gai… Niels ten Oever
- [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alternati… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Aldebaro Klautau
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Santiago Ferreira
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Aaron Kaplan
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Aaron Kaplan
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Eggert, Lars
- Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: draft-irtf-gai… Arjuna Sathiaseelan
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Vesna Manojlovic
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… future
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… future
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alter… Nicolás Echániz
- [gaia] Fwd: RE: Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-… future
- Re: [gaia] Fwd: RE: Review required: draft-irtf-g… Mitar
- Re: [gaia] Fwd: RE: Review required: draft-irtf-g… future
- Re: [gaia] Fwd: RE: Review required: draft-irtf-g… Mitar
- Re: [gaia] Fwd: RE: Review required: draft-irtf-g… Jose Saldana