Re: [gaia] Ideas for a 2021 plan

David Johnson <> Tue, 19 January 2021 11:00 UTC

Return-Path: <>
Received: from localhost (localhost []) by (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD2A03A1441 for <>; Tue, 19 Jan 2021 03:00:33 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -2.097
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.097 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key)
Received: from ([]) by localhost ( []) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zMrP3yjT_GTN for <>; Tue, 19 Jan 2021 03:00:31 -0800 (PST)
Received: from ( [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::732]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D75C83A1436 for <>; Tue, 19 Jan 2021 03:00:30 -0800 (PST)
Received: by with SMTP id 19so21372533qkm.8 for <>; Tue, 19 Jan 2021 03:00:30 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=ZJrlVjsBwMVPWD3uQyPeHrj7FtTafO2IRdSJ9du4cVk=; b=ue/J6jFf3qQPCVGZf1MWd5GUBoFxzArrKxAeVxF6p5gLnMlIaw1Ym42BfrXjJE/iNs WczAioWrrosMdM5fNsO7OaExU0Xkeu0Rcbeh26YJaMM94OUyD9SXiAyJCP4pVMI7U22x EvM418cGPVymNqYGv+tZLfqI8TjizVVX02KU6Ob5Jg5fkOfXrVbgOCF6gpzRNdfi29a+ /HtaE/CbzBG7CDP0+bKGwg1LrqxRQisprk3joPIm1pLjFGdt7lzbrPkbuZoAu0enE9TR 7h2ocouXWtoA0YfR/fjQybyIEMvKsNc3DhUB2bKtmJyqZ0ThvGIKtWe3s8scf8yuf1AI +tbQ==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=ZJrlVjsBwMVPWD3uQyPeHrj7FtTafO2IRdSJ9du4cVk=; b=qj0TQgyGgElEu9ld5kv5w+N816cExOStZ/BVsuiIeeyVlQCzAPszlOMFEd4AZT8UkE jE1/maUs92foYrdU7BRQ+G2Enk6POahr9Ap6vzSL/A9kz3momDFrXWyEXMjJ226Wvb6r wtFnZjHUUD/1HWgKNcKHF0wTvyvYSJtP6mfKuQZcdQESaj6rhRgt81yqcypE4q7511Q6 ApQ80ZUXntu38IqCNx795dSTl97zxoe/4sYD63ZMONDi1oLiDnMhk2igigiB2u7BFfSL tuL+zzljddC9jwR3UTP7RCj6IoCufVYwx7CFYLkBJJD1HZ+Ce88E362LoTZQo3Sfo/H8 4ygQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532fFIB4RJJLg58zKIJmlLrbJ+lIF/g5mwyqpdyI+DGOVklUxTAY crsAyj2EyTUc/d9Po1/eyVo=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyikSmRoQgzNWQwTJ3wS9XZwIecTbfHxa9ATzCbJ8KGYVCF7740werExqdYhvbFvXZGYfEdVg==
X-Received: by 2002:a05:620a:1ea:: with SMTP id x10mr3725793qkn.90.1611054029781; Tue, 19 Jan 2021 03:00:29 -0800 (PST)
Received: from [] ([]) by with ESMTPSA id u7sm12539026qke.116.2021. (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-ECDSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 19 Jan 2021 03:00:29 -0800 (PST)
From: David Johnson <>
Message-Id: <>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9FD3B497-B0A8-4CF5-B47F-1422EE44214C"
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 13.4 \(3608.\))
Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 13:00:21 +0200
In-Reply-To: <>
Cc: Leandro Navarro <>, gaia <>
To: Arjuna Sathiaseelan <>
References: <> <> <>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3608.
Archived-At: <>
Subject: Re: [gaia] Ideas for a 2021 plan
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: Global Access to the Internet for All <>
List-Unsubscribe: <>, <>
List-Archive: <>
List-Post: <>
List-Help: <>
List-Subscribe: <>, <>
X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 11:00:34 -0000

I hear you Arjuna - this is a tough space

I think a robust debate is needed on the right mix of government / private company / community involvement in sustainably expanding access

The ideal model for me is

- Government create a very open environment with spectrum / licensing policy that encourages new small companies to enter the market and prevents e.g. incumbents charging high inter connect fees to block new players from market share, open access for towers, fibre, spectrum sharing for unused spectrum etc.

- Gov or private-public partnerships create a wholesale access network that extends into areas with lower market viability with tax incentives etc. to encourage private companies to do roll out

- Small retail ISPs or cooperatives /  community networks connect to this wholesale access network to private access services ... whether it should be cooperative (community network) / small private ISP will depend on the local situation in the country - I've seen how tough it is to get a community network to work in a low-income area in South Africa ... especially where members are worrying about having food for their family over the next week. In some cases it may make sense to start with the infrastructure installed and run by a small micro-ISP or NGO (with a high percentage of local employees) based on a pure commercial model or cross-funded by an NGO which may have education/health/youth development funding that needs connectivity - perhaps with a view of slowly transferring all ownership to the local community and starting with the services and content component following a cooperative / community network model with members deciding on the rules for what content and services are available in the community and what user policies to put in place.   

My views on the right model are constantly changing as I see what works and what doesn't 


> On 19 Jan 2021, at 12:35, Arjuna Sathiaseelan <> wrote:
> I think there is a fundamental problem gaia/or anything related needs to strongly address..
> Based on some of our experiences trying to work with communities to solve their own connectivity/content problems 
> 1/ there is relatively no money to be made for organisations (either no willingness to pay - they want free services or just cant afford to pay).. this is a fundamental problem..we have been working with several community networks now - for them to deploy infrastructure they need either ISOC to fund it or a similar organisation to fund it.. without external funding none of these organisations can sustainably deploy or maintain their infrastructure..there are outliers but that depends on the community's purchasing power..
> unless markets are opened up for new entrants - which is again correlated to money - sustainable connectivity is never going to happen.
> 2/ there are other problems to solve like power outages, infrastructure financing requirements, obsolete/sub standard mobile phones etc that are key to be solved (again in a sustainable way)..
> this all points out to government/regulatory angle that needs more work.. privatisation and competion is key..
> all the community work is great but if there isnt an effort from the government i dont think anything is going to happen in this space. If there isnt money to be made nothing is going to happen is the bottom line.
> regards
> Arjuna
> On Tue, 19 Jan 2021, 10:20 David Johnson, < <>> wrote:
> Hi all
> Those are great topics Leandro. I have a few pet interests this year which may be relevant 
> - I received some funding from the Ford Foundation on looking barriers to contributions to open source "digital infrastructure" from Africa  - the label given by Ford Foundation for all the protocols / applications etc. that make up the Internet and the WWW. This could be a wider topic on how to ensure that there is more representation from all countries rather than just a few in the Global North to IETF, projects on GitHub related to protocols / application son the Internet.
> - I really feel like Covid-19 has forced many educators to rethink the way learning happens - not just in lockdown but beyond and I think it may be interesting to pick this specific topic for IETF ... its connected to many of these topics (public vs private nets, network for everything and people  etc.) but with a lens of thinking  of new ways of learning that provides more equitable education in more vulnerable communities.
> - Related to the above - I noticed a few countries attempting zero rating - making education / health / government sites free on all networks  during lockdown - but if often doesn't work very well because of https, embedded links, sites making use of general platforms like Youtube for video delivery etc. I think it would be an interesting topic to dig into - how to make zero rating work well but also ensuring that communities have a say in what is zero rated 
> Regards
> David
>> On 19 Jan 2021, at 12:05, Leandro Navarro < <>> wrote:
>> Dear all, 
>> I hope 2021 is way better than 2020+1. This is a message to share ideas for a 2021 plan to discuss topics in different events (IETF meetings and interim) and volunteers to present or organize themes.
>> What you’d like to see?
>> Some initial ideas:
>> - internet minimum common denominator: roadblocks, opportunities, solutions for an internet for everyone (tech, legal, regulatory, investment, etc)
>> - internet for people and the planet: the internet as part of the problem and part of the solution? (how an internet for everyone can be sustainable)
>> - a network for every-thing and people: challenges and opportunities (IoT, home networks, new satellite internets/ISPs, IPv6 finally?, corporate nets, mobile public & community nets)
>> - public vs private internet: traffic, content, neutrality
>> - the maintenance of a public internet commons: software, protocols interoperability, applications, infrastructure (e.g. NTP, IXP, etc)
>> - the pandemic and post-pandemic Internet
>> I can volunteer to organize a couple of sessions on some of these topics, and I’d be happy to support new faces too.
>> Best wishes,
>> --
>> Leandro Navarro
>> <> <>
>> _______________________________________________
>> gaia mailing list
>> <>
>> <>
> _______________________________________________
> gaia mailing list
> <>
> <>