Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments

Niels ten Oever <niels@article19.org> Tue, 15 March 2016 15:25 UTC

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To: Jose Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es>
References: <003101d17914$247b6b30$6d724190$@unizar.es>
From: Niels ten Oever <niels@article19.org>
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Subject: Re: [gaia] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments
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Hi Jose,

Thanks a lot for this. I think the docoment really improved. The
examples at the end of the topologies make everything more concrete and
add relevance to the document.

I still have a few (small) issues with:

1.
The first sentence of the abstract is quite complex. Can you rephrase? I
think the abstract covers the content really well though, so this is
only textual.

2.
Add a reference to GAIA charter (source of the quote I presume) in the
introduction.

3.
1.1, 2nd bullet, 's are used' can be removed

4.
I still have issues with the lemma on Developed and developing countries
in the way it is used now. I think the easiest way to resolve this is to
use the terms 'Global north' and 'global south'.

I also advise to remove a reference to 'the folk way of living' and 'the
modern technology-driven way of living which began in the Industrial
Revolution'. Because: a) it implies a false linearity. 'The modern
technology driven-way of living' is not the only way to progress. b) it
creates two false unities, not all ways of living (and uses of
technology) are the same in the global south nor the global north. There
is a multitude of uses and appropriations of technology.

5.
Chapter 3. Scenarios where Alternative Networks are deployed
Replace 'in' in first sentence with 'on'

6.
When you talk about WSIS, it might be good to talk about it in the past
tense. AFAIK the new workplan after WSIS+10 evaluation has not been
finalized, but I might be wrong.
If the workplan has been finalized it might be good to reference to that.

Hope this helps.

Best,

Niels



Niels ten Oever
Head of Digital

Article 19
www.article19.org

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On 03/08/2016 09:25 AM, Jose Saldana wrote:
> Hi Niels,
> 
> According to your review, we have built a new version of the draft. We have not uploaded it yet to the IETF web page.
> 
> This e-mail contains three attachments:
> 
> - These are your general comments, and our responses: General_Comments_Review_Niels.txt
> 
> - These are the detailed comments ([JS] means Jose Saldana), added to your review (marked with "#"): draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-03 edit NtO_JS2.txt
> 
> - And this would be the new version of the draft: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-03c.txt
> 
> 
> Thank you very much!
> 
> Jose
> 
>> -----Mensaje original-----
>> De: gaia [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Niels ten Oever
>> Enviado el: martes, 02 de febrero de 2016 18:11
>> Para: Jose Saldana <jsaldana@unizar.es>es>; gaia@irtf.org
>> CC: 'Javier Simó' <javier.simo@urjc.es>es>; irsg@irtf.org
>> Asunto: Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-
>> deployments
>>
> Hi Jose,
> 
> Thanks for this. Reply inline:
> 
> On 02/02/2016 01:44 PM, Jose Saldana wrote:
>>>> Dear Niels,
>>>>
>>>> First of all, thank you very much for your detailed review. As said
>>>> today, your comments will be useful for building an improved version.
>>>>
> 
> My pleasure!
> 
> 
>>>> But I think here is something we should decide now: what to do
>>>> about "deployment experiences", i.e. point 4 of your review.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4. It could perhaps be interesting to provide some
>>>>>>>> additional information on actual alternative network
>>>>>>>> deployments, perhaps by providing some case studies and,
>>>>>>>> on the basis of these, a set of best practices /
>>>>>>>> recommendations for specific situations.
>>>>
>>>> As Javier says, we have discussed this possibility in the GAIA
>>>> meeting in Prague
>>>> (https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/93/minutes/minutes-93-gaia):
>>>>
>>>> "Lixia Zhang: The Internet didn’t start as a community effort. On
>>>> the draft, what is the main purpose? I’m interested in what you
>>>> have learned, and what advice you may have.
>>>>
>>>> Niels ten Oever: This is a great overview, but how will you set
>>>> boundaries. There are lots of handbook materials that could be
>>>> linked to, to avoid making this draft grow to 100s of pages. In
>>>> particular we could define more on centralised v. decentralised
>>>> approaches.
>>>>
>>>> Jane Coffin: Energy is also important for rural areas.
>>>>
>>>> Mat: I think the original motivation was to get a definition of
>>>> “Alternative Networks”, it’s not scoped to be 100s of pages, but
>>>> more can we define what we mean as Alternative Networks, and then
>>>> provide examples. Lixia’s suggestion of looking at learning
>>>> outcomes, could be a future document that may be useful."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> We also talked about that in the list, and we (more or less)
>>>> agreed on this solution: to first focus on a "taxonomy" draft, and
>>>> leave "deployment experiences" for future work.
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/gaia/current/msg00831.html
>>>>
>>>> In fact, we already removed some content from the draft, as it was
>>>> related to "deployment experiences". See parts removed from Section
>>>> 4 in these two versions:
>>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-
> deployments-01&url2=draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-00
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> And we have also asked for volunteers for the "deployment
>>>> experiences" draft:
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/gaia/current/msg00916.html
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So my opinion is that we should avoid including this in the
>>>> present document. As you said in Prague, it is a matter of defining
>>>> some boundaries on the scope of the document. What do you think?
>>>>
> 
> I would leave that for the authors and the group to decide. But AFAIK
> there are a few major deployments / projects out there, such as
> Freifunk (Germany), Guifi (Catalunia), Rhizomatica (Mexico), and
> perhaps Commotion (Tunisia, Redhook, Congo). Referencing these could
> bring the draft closer to actual practices (and with that increase
> relevance). Another approach could be providing a concrete example for
> every topology you define under 4.
> 
> I completely agree with you that deployment experiences should not go
> into this draft, that would be too much. The same is true for
> providing an exhaustive list of implementations.
> 
>>>> Thanks in advance,
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> Niels
> 
>>>>
>>>> Jose
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> -----Mensaje original----- De: gaia
>>>>> [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Javier Simó Enviado
>>>>> el: lunes, 01 de febrero de 2016 14:09 Para: gaia@irtf.org
>>>>> Asunto: Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required:
>>>>> draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network- deployments
>>>>>
>>>>> For the most important points (the most detailed ones), there are
>>>>> a few good interdisciplinary people in this lists with a
>>>>> background in development studies. I guess that it is just a
>>>>> matter of these people polishing the text.
>>>>>
>>>>> For point 4, ... well, the decission after Prague was to TAKE
>>>>> OUT the experiences and build another document. If experiences
>>>>> are required in here, then, we should reverse that decission and
>>>>> pilot a controlled introduction of best practices / case studies
>>>>> in the appropriate subsections.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Javier
>>>>>
>>>>> El 01/02/16 a las 13:58, Jose Saldana escribió:
>>>>>> Thank you very much, Niels!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We will take your comments into account in order to build an
>>>>>> improved version of
>>>>> the draft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jose
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Mensaje original----- De: gaia
>>>>>>> [mailto:gaia-bounces@irtf.org] En nombre de Mat Ford Enviado
>>>>>>>  el: lunes, 01 de febrero de 2016 13:27 Para: Niels ten
>>>>>>> Oever <niels@article19.org>rg>;
>>>>>>> draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network- deployments@ietf.org CC:
>>>>>>> gaia <gaia@irtf.org>rg>; Internet Research Steering Group
>>>>>>> <irsg@irtf.org> Asunto: Re: [gaia] [irsg] Review required:
>>>>>>> draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network- deployments
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks very much for the detailed review Niels, it is
>>>>>>> valuable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Authors - please discuss how you would like to address these
>>>>>>> comments and let Niels and myself know. If there is a need
>>>>>>> for further discussion, please let’s keep that on
>>>>>>> gaia@irtf.org.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mat
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 30 Jan 2016, at 23:35, Niels ten Oever
>>>>>>>> <niels@article19.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please find my review of
>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/id/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deploy
> me
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
> nt s-03.txt below. This is my first IRSG review, so please bear with
>>>>>>>> me.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I mostly followed
>>>>>>>> https://wiki.tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5743#section-2.2 and
>>>>>>>> academic review practices, but please let me know where I
>>>>>>>> might have misstepped.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I hope this is useful.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 0. The topic of the draft is very relevant and timely and
>>>>>>>> brings together many different angles that are needed to
>>>>>>>> address the multidisciplinary nature of access, the
>>>>>>>> Internet, and community owned
>>>>> networks.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. The issue of the digital divide is approached from a
>>>>>>>> 'development studies' paradigm (e.g. developing
>>>>>>>> countries), quite some scientific literature has been
>>>>>>>> published about this topic. Most current literature
>>>>>>>> acknowledges that for instance term 'developing country' is
>>>>>>>> problematic because it assumes that all countries are on a
>>>>>>>> similar trajectory, from 'underdeveloped' to 'western'.
>>>>>>>> Empirical data shows that this is not the case. More
>>>>>>>> accurate would be to address differential developmental
>>>>>>>> trajectories by referring to the Global North vs. the
>>>>>>>> Global South, or using other frames.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also terms like 'Digital Divide', 'Data Revolution',
>>>>>>>> 'Information Society' as well as the 'WSIS process' have
>>>>>>>> been dissected, discussed and interpreted in quite a
>>>>>>>> variety of ways. it might be good to engage with the
>>>>>>>> literature on this if you would like to use these terms,
>>>>>>>> and if so, refer to the relevant sources.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Same is true for the method or model of knowledge transfer
>>>>>>>> that is mentioned in the draft. At several places it is
>>>>>>>> implied that knowledge travels from North to South and
>>>>>>>> from Urban to Rural, which might be a one dimensional way
>>>>>>>> of representing a quite multifaceted process of technology
>>>>>>>> appropriation and development.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In terms of methodology: you are clearly coming at this
>>>>>>>> problem from a multidisciplinary approach. Which is great,
>>>>>>>> considering the multidisciplinary nature of the Internet
>>>>>>>> and the problem you are addressing. However, if you do
>>>>>>>> decide to use concepts from different fields and
>>>>>>>> disciplines (like for instance urban and rural from urban
>>>>>>>> planning, demand and provision from economics or the
>>>>>>>> digital divide from sociology) it is important to make this
>>>>>>>> explicit. I would suggest adding a sub-section in which you
>>>>>>>> explain how you built your multidisciplinary research
>>>>>>>> method and why you use the concepts you applied.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. There is a lot of doubling between abstract and
>>>>>>>> introduction. I recommend reducing the abstract.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3. The discussion under point 1. and 2. is maybe not
>>>>>>>> necessary for achieving the goal of providing a a taxonomy
>>>>>>>> of alternative network deployments. However, Maybe the
>>>>>>>> first part could be shorter.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 4. It could perhaps be interesting to provide some
>>>>>>>> additional information on actual alternative network
>>>>>>>> deployments, perhaps by providing some case studies and,
>>>>>>>> on the basis of these, a set of best practices /
>>>>>>>> recommendations for specific situations.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the attached file more inline editorial comments and
>>>>>>>> suggestions are provided.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Niels
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -- Niels ten Oever Head of Digital
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Article 19 www.article19.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PGP fingerprint    8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2
>>>>>>>> 636D 68E9
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Niels ten Oever Head of Digital
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Article 19 www.article19.org
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PGP fingerprint    8D9F C567 BEE4 A431 56C4 678B 08B5 A0F2
>>>>>>>> 636D 68E9
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 01/14/2016 12:39 PM, Mat Ford wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Hi folks,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The GAIA RG has successfully concluded an RG Last Call
>>>>>>>>> for the document
>>>>>>>>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-net
> wo
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
> rk
>>>>>>>>>> -deployments/
>>>>>>>>> As document shepherd I’m now looking for someone from
>>>>>>>>> the IRSG to review
>>>>>>> the document. Any volunteers?
>>>>>>>>> If no one volunteers, Lisandro Granville is top of the
>>>>>>>>> list:
>>>>>>>>> https://trac.tools.ietf.org/group/irtf/trac/wiki/IRSGReviewLog
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
> Mat
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-03 edit
>>>>>>>> NtO.txt>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing
>>>>>>> list gaia@irtf.org
>>>>>>> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing
>>>>>> list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------- Fco. Javier
>>>>> Simó Reigadas <javier.simo@urjc.es> Subdirector de Ord. Docente
>>>>> ETS de Ingeniería de Telecomunicación D-204, Departamental III
>>>>> Camino Del Molino, s/n - 28943 Fuenlabrada (Madrid) Tel:
>>>>> 914888428, Fax: 914887500 Web personal:
>>>>> http://www.tsc.urjc.es/~javier.simo
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list
>>>>>  gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia
>>>>
>>>>
>>
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