Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-02
Nicolás Echániz <nicoechaniz@altermundi.net> Wed, 16 December 2015 18:33 UTC
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From: Nicolás Echániz <nicoechaniz@altermundi.net>
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Subject: Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-02
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one last thing... another way of grouping networks is "for profit" and "not for profit" (academic, community, testbeds, etc.); in my opinion, those run by for profit organizations would fall in for profit category, even if they are free of charge. On 12/16/2015 03:21 PM, Nicolás Echániz wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > I am Nicolás Echániz from AlterMundi in Argentina. > > I'm coming late to this discussion but I'd like to point out that from > the point of view of our community networks, I would not use the words > "alternative" or "complementary". For some reason, Community Networks, > which is the name that is established throughout the CN movement is > usually avoided elsewhere. I believe this generates confusion. > > Community Networks nowadays include networks with their own ASN, where > deployment is hybrid wireless + fiber; in fact everything about > community networks can be compared to other network models, except for > the socio-economical aspect, which is what defines them as "community" > and not just networks. > > Avoiding this is what creates such confusion as believing that Facebook > deploying drones around the world (which is clearly an Alternative), can > be related to the work done in Community Networks. > > Regarding the original list of "kinds of networks" being considered: > > 1 Community Networks > 2 Wireless Internet Service Providers WISPs > 3 Shared infrastructure model > 4 Crowdshared approaches, led by the people and third party stakeholders > 5 Testbeds for research purposes > > These do not all fall into what José explained in a previous e-mail: > > "we are mainly talking about initiatives driven by the people and local > companies. The idea is that people will maintain the control of the > network they have created." > > WISPs for example, can be big commercial entities with no community control. > > Furthermore, calling Community Networks "alternative" or > "complementary", puts them in a second level status in relation to > "mainstream" networks which we are in fact trying to avoid. These are > Networks, just like all others, but with communities behind them. > > > To sum this up, I'd say that Community Networks be called just that and > if necessary they can be put in their own group, while the rest can be > called "alternative" if those involved agree. > > > Well this is just an opinion from our previous experiences trying to > name these initiatives. > > > Cheers, > NicoEchániz > AlterMundi.net > > > On 12/15/2015 07:38 AM, Jose Saldana wrote: >> Hi, >> >> >> >> I also prefer “alternative” for two reasons: >> >> >> >> - I think the word fits better with the networks we had in mind while >> writing the draft: >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/gaia/current/msg00984.html. And >> IMHO, “alternative” is not the same as “complementary”. >> >> >> >> - A more practical reason: today is the deadline established by Mat in >> order to initiate IRSG review of the document. So if we rethink the >> title (and probably the whole document), we may lose a lot of time. I >> must confess this may sound too “practical”, but we already discussed a >> lot about the name to be applied to these networks. See e.g. these threads: >> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/gaia/current/msg00227.html >> >> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/gaia/current/msg00187.html >> >> >> >> >> >> Thanks a lot! >> >> >> >> Jose >> >> >> >> *De:*Andrés Arcia-Moret [mailto:andres.arcia@gmail.com] >> *Enviado el:* lunes, 14 de diciembre de 2015 14:51 >> *Para:* Javier Simó <javier.simo@urjc.es> >> *CC:* jsaldana <jsaldana@unizar.es>; gaia@irtf.org >> *Asunto:* Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: >> draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments-02 >> >> >> >> Dear all, >> >> >> >> I second Javier, voting "alternative". I think we’ve all agreed on the >> name alternative networks because it (mainly) matches an independent >> willingness of communities to get connected.. >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> Andrés >> >> >> >> >> >> On 14 Dec 2015, at 09:48, Javier Simó <javier.simo@urjc.es >> <mailto:javier.simo@urjc.es>> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hello >> >> I don't like the word "complementary" for two reasons: >> >> 1) Something is complementary when there is no competition. But, why >> not? I don't see why a community network cannot be deployed even if >> it is somehow in competition with a "traditional" existing network >> deployed by an operator. >> >> 2) The word "alternative" was used focusing on a number of criteria, >> not only on the non-existance of a traditional network. >> >> I vote "alternative". >> >> Best regards >> >> Javier >> >> El 12/12/15 a las 17:03, jsaldana escribió: >> >> Hi, Arjuna and all, >> >> In my opinion, in order to clarify if "Alternative network" = >> "Complementary network", we should answer two questions: >> >> A) Are all "Alternative networks" also "Complementary networks"? >> >> In the draft we are considering five kinds of networks: >> >> 1 Community Networks >> >> 2 Wireless Internet Service Providers WISPs >> >> 3 Shared infrastructure model >> >> 4 Crowdshared approaches, led by the people and third party stakeholders >> >> 5 Testbeds for research purposes >> >> In the case of 4, it is clear that they are a "complement," >> since they share the infrastructure and may reduce the CAPEX of >> the operator. >> >> In the case of 1, they may become a "complement". Is this >> currently happening? >> >> I don't think that WISPs (2) usually share their infrastructure >> with traditional operators. Am I right? >> >> >> >> B) Are all "Complementary networks" also "Alternative networks"? >> >> I think for example in the Wi-Fi network of an airport. This >> network can be considered as "complementary", because it may be >> used to offload data from the mobile network. But it is not >> "alternative" (it is not included in the draft), because it may >> be promoted by a traditional operator (not by the people), etc. >> >> >> >> Any other ideas? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jose >> >> >> >> El 2015-12-12 13:45, Arjuna Sathiaseelan escribió: >> >> Thanks Mat. >> >> >> >> I have been recently discussing with Roger from Guifi about >> whether community networks should be termed as Alternative >> Networks or should it be called Complimentary Networks >> considering that community networks could end up sharing >> infrastructure with network operators who could see this as >> a great opportunity to access the last mile without a CAPEX. >> >> >> >> So is Alternative Networks the right terminology or should >> we have Complimentary Networks? >> >> >> >> Regards >> >> >> >> On 1 December 2015 at 16:28, Mat Ford <ford@isoc.org >> <mailto:ford@isoc.org>> wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> I think it’s time we tried to conclude our work on >> draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-network-deployments. Jose >> detailed the changes in the most recent update when he >> announced the update to the list, so I won’t repeat >> those here. I have not seen any further discussion. >> >> If you have any concerns or further comments regarding >> the content of this document, please raise them on this >> mailing list by Tuesday December 15th. I hope to >> initiate IRSG review of the document immediately thereafter. >> >> Thanks, >> Mat >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Arjuna Sathiaseelan >> Personal: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/ >> <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/%7Eas2330/> >> N4D Lab: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~as2330/n4d >> <http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/%7Eas2330/n4d> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> gaia mailing list >> >> gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org> >> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> gaia mailing list >> >> gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org> >> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------- >> >> Fco. Javier Simó Reigadas <javier.simo@urjc.es> <mailto:javier.simo@urjc.es> >> >> Subdirector de Ord. Docente >> >> ETS de Ingeniería de Telecomunicación >> >> D-204, Departamental III >> >> Camino Del Molino, s/n - 28943 Fuenlabrada (Madrid) >> >> Tel: 914888428, Fax: 914887500 >> >> Web personal: http://www.tsc.urjc.es/~javier.simo >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org <mailto:gaia@irtf.org> >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >> >> >> - >> >> A/A/ >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> gaia mailing list >> gaia@irtf.org >> https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia >> >
- [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternative-… Mat Ford
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Steven G. Huter
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Arjuna Sathiaseelan
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… jsaldana
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Jane Coffin
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Henning Schulzrinne
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Jane Coffin
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Javier Simó
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Andrés Arcia-Moret
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Souma B. Wanta
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Nicolás Echániz
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Nicolás Echániz
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Jose Saldana
- Re: [gaia] RG Last Call: draft-irtf-gaia-alternat… Jose Saldana