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boundary="B_3623384667_632216962" --B_3623384667_632216962 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Martin =E2=80=93 =20 This is great news.=C2=A0=20 You have many people here willing and ready to help you. =20 Best, Jane =20 =20 Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 =20 From: Martin Koyabe Date: Friday, October 26, 2018 at 2:35 AM To: Jane Coffin Cc: Sonia Jorge , "gaia@irtf.org" Subject: Re: [gaia] [hrpc] Fibre Feudalism =20 Dear Jane et al,=20 =20 Just for the record, the CTO is planing to conduct a study on USF. We are c= urrently looking for willing partners. =20 The CTO recently launched a report on OTT. The OTT Study Report can be dow= nloaded below: https://cto.int/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/CTO-OTT-Study_Report-Final-Stake= holders-Copy-18-Jun-2018.pdf =20 Regards, =20 Dr. Martin Koyabe=20 Manager, Technical Support & Consultancy Division | Ag Head of Membership &= Communications Department=20 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Address: =C2=A064-66 Glenthorne Road Hammersmith, London W6 0LR=20 =20 Switchboard: +44 20 8600 3800 Email: m.koyabe@cto.int Fax: +44 20 8600 3819 Website: http://www.cto.int Direct Line: +44 20 8600 3815 =C2=A0 Twitter: @koyabe Mobile Line: +44 77 4261 0688/79 1871 2490 =20 Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. Let's think su= stainability. The information in this email communication (inclusive of attachments) is c= onfidential and privileged to the Commonwealth Telecommunications Organisati= on (CTO) and the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended recipien= t(s), please note that any use, disclosure, distribution or copying of this = information or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and that the author a= ccepts no liability for the consequences of any action taken on the basis of= the information provided. If you have received this email in error, please = notify the sender immediately by return email and then delete all instances = of this email from your system. The Commonwealth Telecommunications Organisa= tion (CTO) will not accept responsibility for any consequences associated wi= th the use of this email (including, but not limited to, damages sustained a= s a result of any viruses and/or any action or lack of action taken in relia= nce on it). On 25 Oct 2018, at 17:05, Jane Coffin wrote: =20 Hi Sonia =E2=80=93 =20 Thank you for checking with your team. We would welcome an A4AI colleague t= o present at GAIA. =20 Challenges with USF are part of the web of policy/regulatory issues that ne= ed rebooting in general to connect more people/improve connectivity. =20 Best, Jane =20 Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 =20 From: Sonia Jorge Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 2:29 PM To: Jane Coffin Cc: "director@ipop.org.pk" , "gaia@irtf.org" , Carlos Rey-Moreno , Leandro Navarro , Steve Song , "hrpc@irtf.org" , "vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , Kurtis Heimerl Subject: Re: [gaia] [hrpc] Fibre Feudalism =20 Hi Jane,=20 =20 As you know, A4AI has put a lot of thought into USFs across the regions, wi= th a focus on making them effective and accountable mechanisms to deliver un= iversal access through multiple options (including community access, network= s, public wifi support, etc.), but also focusing on targeted groups, e.g., w= omen and girls. =20 Not sure if anyone on our team is available to support the Bangkok discussi= on but will check and let you know. =20 As for your very good questions, I am not sure I have an answer. I can tell= you that we are certainly trying and have had some interest, but takes time= to do this at a scale that you can see impact. As I believe I shared earlie= r, we are planning to do this in the ECOWAS countries and are currently doin= g it in Mozambique. =20 Happy to discuss further! Best, Sonia Jorge Executive Director, Alliance for Affordable Internet Head of Digital Inclusion Program, Web Foundation a4ai.org Twitter: @A4A_internet +1-617-905-7819 (USA) PGP: 8B995609B48715A3 =20 World Wide Web Foundation | 1110 Vermont Ave NW, Suite 500, Washington DC 2= 0005, USA | www.webfoundation.org | Twitter: @webfoundation =20 =20 On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 8:28 AM Jane Coffin wrote: Arzak =E2=80=93 =20 Spot on. I have seen this as well in many countries. We also know of a story (all too common) where a small island nation adopte= d an USF Regulation, and did not develop procedures or rules/sub-regulations= to implement the regulation. When a small networking project applied for f= unds, the process took a year due to the need to establish regs and to wrang= le the funds out of the regulator. =20 =20 I have 2 asks from the GAIA community: =20 ASK 1: Would any of you like to speak at the upcoming GAIA session on this= topic (remotely or in person in Bangkok)? GAIA @IETF103 will be Tuesday, 6 November 2018 Afternoon Session I 1350-1550 (=3D0630 UTC, Tuesday, 6 Nov). ASK 2: Carlos suggested we include more about USF/USO in a GAIA output. N= ote Leandro=E2=80=99s email from a few weeks ago about putting a document together= . =20 =20 USF/USO also begs these other questions: -Should governments start new funds that are more flexible to support the d= evelopment of IXPs and Community Networks/Muni networks? Given that it could= take years for some governments to change USF and other rules/procedures/re= gs/processes? -How can we light a fire under the toes of big funders to urge them to supp= ort funding smaller projects where we provide business/management and fin/ma= nagement training (Many of our organizations could help them develop this an= cillary training). =20 =20 Best, Jane =20 =20 Internet Society | www.internetsociety.org Skype: janercoffin Mobile/WhatsApp: +1.202.247.8429 =20 From: gaia on behalf of Arzak Khan Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 5:17 AM To: Kurtis Heimerl , Carlos Rey-Moreno Cc: "gaia@irtf.org" , "vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" , Steve Song , "hrpc@irt= f..org" , Leandro Navarro Subject: Re: [gaia] [hrpc] Fibre Feudalism =20 The utilization of USF funds has been an issue in Pakistan where Ministry o= f IT and Telecoms has used the fund for building cricket stadiums, distribut= ing smartphones to government employees and many other projects which has no= t impacted greatly on provisioning of broadband services in most of rural Pa= kistan. Building out fiber networks still remain a challenge and limited to = few players only without promoting any competition. =20 =20 Arzak=20 =20 From: hrpc on behalf of Kurtis Heimerl Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 6:44 AM To: Carlos Rey-Moreno Cc: gaia; vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Steve Song; hrpc@irtf.org; Lean= dro Navarro Subject: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre Feudalism =20 I thought it worth noting that some of my experiences have been different t= han Carlos's; for example in an unnamed central asian country the regulator = mentioned that the USF distribution is set in policy and they must, by law, = return the money to the telecoms. Even in those with the ability to put the = money elsewhere, there were occasionally structures that push the regulator = to fund "related" but non-competitive services like computer or internet lit= eracy. Tricky space with a lot of moving pieces.=20 =20 On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:58 PM Carlos Rey-Moreno wrote: Hi all, interesting debate indeed, and happy to join a further call on this= , or even work in a document where we can consolidate these discussions.=20 =20 After having engaged with several regulators, and managers/officials from u= niversal access agencies in Africa this year, my main take away is that they= keep on using USO to incentivize incumbents to go to rural areas because th= at's the only way they know. Once they are presented with alternative models= like the ones mentioned by Leandro, they are very open, in principle, to ex= plore them. They are the ones who know how ineffective the current models ar= e, but in most cases they are, as Steve points out, constrained by framework= s that only allow to use the fund to those who contribute to it.=20 =20 I think, at least in Africa, there is a very interesting opportunity to wor= k together with USAF managers/officials to discuss an potentially implement = innovative ways of using them. Consolidating the knowledge in this discussio= n and others in a working document, with the different advocates in the regi= on speaking proposing the same thing, could contribute a lot in this directi= on. =20 best,=20 =20 carlos =20 On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro wrote: Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country policy) goes in the opp= osite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form of subsidy or tax dedu= ction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal monopoly. The typical go= vernment argument is that USO is paid by industry, that reflects this privil= ege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the incumbent only (everyon= e pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In consequence, the incumb= ent does the minimum required to justify receiving the funds to preserve the= pool of unconnected as a source of future USO income (the serfs of the feud= al system).=20 For example, one fibre community network but can be any alternative operato= r to the incumbent, fears the effect of that: https://www.ispreview.co..uk/i= ndex.php/2017/11/b4rn-fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rol= lout.html That=E2=80=99s why USO as implemented can be counter effective. Alternative model= s of distribution, radically different, are needed, where all the funds are = not given to a single operator (and deter investment by others), but to ever= y citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Bottom-up (people centred) ins= tead of top-down (incumbent centred). Something along those lines may contri= bute to increase alternatives and not just be used to mainly reinforce the d= e-facto monopoly of largest operators (for example: https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn= -service/gbvs/ ) Otherwise USO policies are mainly a form of public subsidy,= a form of monopoly, to reinforce the incumbent, with the excuse of the unde= rserved and unconnected. Leandro. =20 On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf wrot= e: =20 Steve is spot on.=20 V =20 On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song wrote: Hi Amelia, Sonia,=20 =20 I agree this is a very interesting and timely debate and I would be happy t= o participate in a discussion on this. =20 =20 Universal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally restrict= ed to) giving money back to the incumbents to build out infrastructure has p= roven (over and over and over again) to be a terrible idea. I hope we can a= gree that we should stop doing that. For me the issue is about power and co= ntrol and the way it is used to impede competition. The cost of technology = has plummeted in both fibre and wireless technologies. In theory that shoul= d have been a boon for competition but high spectrum auction fees and licens= es along with exclusive control of fibre backbones has created an almost imp= enetrable barrier to market entry. Any government intervention in universal= service should obliged to address the issue of market permeability as well = as ownership of and access to core networks. =20 Cheers... Steve =20 On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge w= rote: Hi All,=20 =20 Interesting discussion here. One that might warrant a webinar/conference ca= ll among interested people? Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to jo= in a stimulating discussion on the topic, starting with your blog and the Ac= cess Model.=20 =20 Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or a paper (anything you may have= ) that shows that relationship between USO and quality of infrastructure? I = find that very difficult to believe but open to be proven wrong.=20 =20 Something important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been m= ore instrumental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer and = behind in terms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the case in= some Southern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. S= o the level of economic development overall is a key variable.=20 As for Africa and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here, = but for now let me call your attention to some reports we produced and that = can add to the discussion.=20 - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: https://a4ai.org/affordability-repo= rt/report/2017/. Note that the 2018 report will be launched and published on= Tuesday and addresses key questions relevant to this discussion, specially = on costs associated with infrastructure investment - a recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: https://a4ai..org/a= ffordable-internet-access-the-cost-challenge/ - For those interested in USFs in Africa, see https://a4ai.org/universal-se= rvice-and-access-funds-an-untapped-resource-to-close-the-gender-digital-divi= de/ =20 Best, Sonia Jorge=20 Executive Director, A4AI Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation 1-617-905-7819 On Oct 20, 2018, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter wrot= e: Hi all, It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal Service Obligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied. Applying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces off with the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service provider has information advantage and typically a better relationship to its consumers than the government has to its citizens (so a communications advantage too). I lack experience of the African markets and their regulators, but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in various European jurisdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar difficulties would arise in the African setting. This is a bit theoretical, and I'm just curious how to avoid these information asymmetries? As it is described by Steven, the current feudalism (operators A, B and C all collaborate as soon as they own physical fibre networks) also incentivises many actors to get into the infrastructure market. That's fundamentally a good thing: it means not all the last-mile is owned by a few big actors who need to be regulated by a regulator who is fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to the big actors. It's the main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundling reform of 1999 in the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in last-mile infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different actors have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or where there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I misunderstanding something? best regards, Amelia On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote: Hi Mallory, =20 Thanks for that! I think you are on exactly the right track in terms of thinking about economic models. Thanks to Erick Huerta of Rhizomatica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic historian, Fernand Braudel.. Braudel argues that the world has three economies not one. A global economy which is the well-known capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game in theory for every player. Google, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual suspects form part of this economy. The second economy is the Local Economy where services are specific to the city/community where you live. This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even larger service provider which offers services that grow out of local demand and which serve local needs in more unique ways than the Global Economy. The third economy is the Subsistence economy where market forces may not operate because there is not sufficient traditional capital to make it work.. This is the world of the informal economy with barters, cooperatives, community initiatives that directly contribute to the overall economy but are largely unmeasured by traditional statistics. And woven among these are both commercial and commons models, which can operate with varying success at the different levels. =20 =20 When viewed through this lens, it is easy to see how regulation has only enabled the global economy in telecommunication and that there is a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initiatives in the Local and Subsistence economies. =20 =20 For me this also highlights a key flaw in models like the World Bank's Access Gap model . It is not so much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional; assuming that successful global capitalism is the best of all possible outcomes. =20 Writing more about this shortly. =20 Cheers... Steve =20 =20 On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel > wrote: =20 Hi Steve, =20 Thanks for sharing. I read it last night and I really enjoyed it.. I think the metaphor is solid economically. And politically, well, that could be another post in and of itself.. =20 The agrarian commons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a sort of old-world economic structure that politically controls and profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to call for modern economic models ranging from squarely capitalist to socialist, and even (back to) the commons! =20 I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those who have raised issues of centralisation on the list in the past. =20 -Mallory =20 On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote: Hi all, =20 This is a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just about everywhere). =20 =20 https://manypossibilities..net/2018/10/fibre-feudalism/ =20 Curious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other reactions you may have.=20 =20 Thanks..... Steve Song =20 =20 _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia =20 =20 =20 --=20 Mallory Knodel Head of Digital :: article19.org gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B240 BCD9 B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780 =20 _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia =20 =20 =20 --=20 +1 902 529 0046 stevesong@nsrc.org http://nsrc..org =20 =20 _______________________________________________ hrpc mailing list hrpc@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/hrpc --=20 Amelia Andersdotter Technical Consultant, Digital Programme ARTICLE19 www.article19.org PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 B4E8 0B55 _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia =20 --=20 +1 902 529 0046 stevesong@nsrc.org http://nsrc..org =20 _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia =20 -- Leandro Navarro http://people.ac.upc.edu/leandro http://dsg..ac.upc.edu =20 _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia --=20 Carlos Rey-Moreno, PhD "Community and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator=20 Association for Progressive Communications https://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connec= t-themselves Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 3633 Skype: carlos.reymoreno Twitter: Creym _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia --=20 Public Key: https://flowcrypt.com/pub/kheimerl@cs.washington.edu _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia _______________________________________________ gaia mailing list gaia@irtf.org https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia =20 --B_3623384667_632216962 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Dear Martin =E2=80=93

 

This is great news.=C2=A0

You have many people here willing and rea= dy to help you.

 

Best,

Jane

 

 

Internet Society | www.i= nternetsociety.org

Skype:  janercoffin

Mobile/WhatsApp:  +1.202.247.8429

 

From: Martin Koyabe <Martin.Koyabe@cto.int>
Date: Friday, = October 26, 2018 at 2:35 AM
To: Jane Coffin <coffin@isoc.org>= ;
Cc: Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org>, "gai= a@irtf.org" <gaia@irtf.org>
Subject: Re: [gaia] [hrpc] = Fibre Feudalism

&nbs= p;

Dear Jane et al,

 

Just for= the record, the CTO is planing to conduct a study on USF. We are currently = looking for willing partners.

 

The CTO recently launched a= report on OTT.  The OTT Study Report can be downloaded below:

http= s://cto.int/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/CTO-OTT-Study_Report-Final-Stakeholde= rs-Copy-18-Jun-2018.pdf

 

Regards,

 

Dr. Martin Koya= be 
Manager, Technical Support & Consultancy Division | Ag H= ead of Membership & Communications Department

--------------------------------------------------------------------= ----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --

Address: =C2=A064-66 Glenthorne Road  Hammersmith, London W6 0LR 

 

Switchboard:

+44 20 8600 3800=

Email:

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>m.koyabe@cto.int

Fax:=

+44 20 8600 3819=

    Website:

h= ttp://www.cto.int
Direct Line:=

+44 20 8600 3815 <= /span>=C2=A0      <= b>Twitter:

@koyabe

Mobile Line:

+44 77 4261 0688/79 1871 2490

=

 

Please consider th= e environment before printing this e-mail. Let's think sustainability.
The information in this email communication (inclusive of attachments) is c= onfidential and privileged to the Commonwealth Telecommunications Organ= isation (CTO) and the intended recipient(s). If you are not the intended rec= ipient(s), please note that any use, disclosure, distribution or copying&nbs= p;of this information or any part thereof is strictly prohibited and that th= e author accepts no liability for the consequences of any action taken on th= e basis of the information provided. If you have received this email in= error, please notify the sender immediately by return email and then delete= all instances of this email from your system. The Commonwealth Telecom= munications Organisation (CTO) will not accept responsibility for any c= onsequences associated with the use of this email (including, but not limite= d to, damages sustained as a result of any viruses and/or any action or = ;lack of action taken in reliance on it).

<= /div>



On 25 Oct 2018, a= t 17:05, Jane Coffin <coffin@isoc.org> wrote:

 

Hi Sonia =E2=80=93=

=  

Thank you for checking with your team. We would welcome an A4AI= colleague to present at GAIA.  =

Challenges with USF are part of the web of policy/regulatory i= ssues that need rebooting in general to connect more people/improve connecti= vity.

 

Best,
Jane

=

 

Skype:  janercoffin

Mobile/= WhatsApp:  +1.202.247.8429

 

From: Sonia Jorge <sonia.jorge@webfoundation.org>
Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 a= t 2:29 PM
To: Jane C= offin <coffin= @isoc.org>
Cc: "director@ipop.org.pk" <director@ipop.org.pk>, &quo= t;gaia@irtf.org" <gaia@irtf.org>, Carlos Rey-Moreno <carlos.reymoreno@gmail.com>, Leandro Navarro <leandro@ac.upc.edu>, Steve Song <stevesong@nsrc.or= g>, "hrpc@irtf.org" <hrpc@irtf.org>, "vint=3D40google.co= m@dmarc.ietf.org" <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Kurtis Heimerl <<= span style=3D'color:purple'>kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>
Su= bject: Re: [gaia] [hrpc] F= ibre Feudalism

 

Hi Jane, 

 

As you know, A4AI has put a lot of thought into USFs across the regions, w= ith a focus on making them effective and accountable mechanisms to deliver u= niversal access through multiple options (including community access, networ= ks, public wifi support, etc.), but also focusing on targeted groups, e.g., = women and girls.

&nbs= p;

Not sure if anyone= on our team is available to support the Bangkok discussion but will check a= nd let you know.

&nbs= p;

As for your very g= ood questions, I am not sure I have an answer. I can tell you that we are ce= rtainly trying and have had some interest, but takes time to do this at a sc= ale that you can see impact. As I believe I shared earlier, we are planning = to do this in the ECOWAS countries and are currently doing it in Mozambique.=

 

Happy to discuss further!

Best,

Sonia Jorge
Ex= ecutive Director, Alliance for Affordable Internet

Head of Digital Inclusion Program, Web Foundation=

a4ai.org Twitter: @A4A_internet

=

+1-617-905-7819 (USA)

=

PGP: 8B995609B48715A3

 

World Wide Web Foundation | 1110 Vermont Ave NW, Suite 500, Washing= ton DC 20005, USA | www.webfoundation.org<= /b> | Twitter: @webfoundation

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

 

On Wed, Oc= t 24, 2018 at 8:28 AM Jane Coffin <coffin@isoc.org> wrote:

Arzak =E2=80=93

 

Spot on.  I have seen this as wel= l in many countries.

We also know of a story (all too common) where a = small island nation adopted an USF Regulation, and did not develop procedure= s or rules/sub-regulations to implement the regulation.  When a small n= etworking project applied for funds, the process took a year due to the need= to establish regs and to wrangle the funds out of the regulator.  

<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

I have 2 asks = from the GAIA community:  

ASK 1:  Would any of you like to speak at the upcoming GAIA ses= sion on this topic (remotely or in person in Bangkok)?

=

GAIA @IETF103 w= ill be Tuesday, 6 November 2018

Afternoon Session I 1350-1550 (=3D0630 U= TC, Tuesday, 6 Nov).

ASK 2:  Carlos suggested we include more abo= ut USF/USO in a GAIA output.  Note Leandro=E2=80=99s email from a few weeks a= go about putting a document together.  

 

USF/USO also begs these other questions:

-Should governments start new funds that are more flexible to support t= he development of IXPs and Community Networks/Muni networks? Given that it c= ould take years for some governments to change USF and other rules/procedure= s/regs/processes?

-How can we light a fire under the toes of big funde= rs to urge them to support funding smaller projects where we provide busines= s/management and fin/management training (Many of our organizations could he= lp them develop this ancillary training).  

 

Best,

=

Jane

 

 

Internet Society |&nb= sp;www.internetsociety.org

<= /div>

Skype= :  janercoffin

Mobile/WhatsApp:  +1.202.247.8429=

 

From: gaia <gaia-bounces@i= rtf.org> on behalf of Arzak Khan <director@ipop.org.pk= >
Date: Wednesday, October 24, 2018 at 5:17 AM
To: Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washingto= n.edu>, Carlos Rey-Moreno <carlos.reymoreno@gmai= l.com>
Cc: "gaia@irtf.org" <gaia@irtf.org>, &quo= t;vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org" <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org>, Steve Song <steve= song@nsrc..org>, "hrpc@irtf..org" <hrpc@ir= tf.org>, Leandro Navarro <leandro@ac.upc.edu&= gt;
Subject: Re: [ga= ia] [hrpc] Fibre Feudalism

 

<= span style=3D'font-size:12.0pt'>The utilization of USF funds has been an issue= in Pakistan where Ministry of IT and Telecoms has used the fund for buildin= g cricket stadiums, distributing smartphones to government employees and man= y other projects which has not impacted greatly on provisioning of broadband= services in most of rural Pakistan. Building out fiber networks still remai= n a challenge and limited to few players only without promoting any competit= ion.

 

 

Arzak&= nbsp;

 

From: hrpc <hrpc-bounces@irtf.org> on behalf of Kurtis Heimerl <kheimerl@cs.washington.edu>
Sent: Monday, October 22, 2018 6:44 AM
T= o: Carlos Rey-Moreno
Cc: gaia; vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org; Steve Song; hrpc@irtf.org; Leandro Navarro
Subjec= t: Re: [hrpc] [gaia] Fibre= Feudalism

 

I thought it w= orth noting that some of my experiences have been different than Carlos's; f= or example in an unnamed central asian country the regulator mentioned that = the USF distribution is set in policy and they must, by law, return the mone= y to the telecoms. Even in those with the ability to put the money elsewhere= , there were occasionally structures that push the regulator to fund "r= elated" but non-competitive services like computer or internet literacy= . Tricky space with a lot of moving pieces. 

=

 

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:58 PM Carlos Rey-Moreno <carlos.reymoreno@gmail..com> wrote:

<= /div>

Hi all, interesting debate = indeed, and happy to join a further call on this, or even work in a document= where we can consolidate these discussions. 

 = ;

After having engage= d with several regulators, and managers/officials from universal access agen= cies in Africa this year, my main take away is that they keep on using USO t= o incentivize incumbents to go to rural areas because that's the only way th= ey know. Once they are presented with alternative models like the ones menti= oned by Leandro, they are very open, in principle, to explore them. They are= the ones who know how ineffective the current models are, but in most cases= they are, as Steve points out, constrained by frameworks that only allow to= use the fund to those who contribute to it. 

 = ;

I think, at least i= n Africa, there is a very interesting opportunity to work together with USAF= managers/officials to discuss an potentially implement innovative ways of u= sing them. Consolidating the knowledge in this discussion and others in a wo= rking document, with the different advocates in the region speaking proposin= g the same thing, could contribute a lot in this direction.

 

best, 

 

carlos

=

 

On Sun, 21 Oct 2018 at 19:29, Leandro Navarro <leandro@= ac.upc.edu> wrote:

Agreed, but the sad thing is that practice (country po= licy) goes in the opposite way in the few cases I know where USO is a form o= f subsidy or tax deduction to benefit the incumbent only, before a legal mon= opoly. The typical government argument is that USO is paid by industry, that= reflects this privilege or new form of monopoly/subsidy in favour of the in= cumbent only (everyone pays the king operator in the feudal metaphor). In co= nsequence, the incumbent does the minimum required to justify receiving the = funds to preserve the pool of unconnected as a source of future USO income (= the serfs of the feudal system). 

For example, one fibre community network b= ut can be any alternative operator to the incumbent, fears the effect of tha= t: https://www.ispreview.co..uk/index.php/2017/11/b4rn-= fear-10mbps-uk-broadband-uso-may-hamper-rural-ftth-rollout.html

That=E2=80=99s why USO as implemented can be counter eff= ective. Alternative models of distribution, radically different, are needed,= where all the funds are not given to a single operator (and deter investmen= t by others), but to every citizen that qualifies (to free the serfs). Botto= m-up (people centred) instead of top-down (incumbent centred). Something alo= ng those lines may contribute to increase alternatives and not just be used = to mainly reinforce the de-facto monopoly of largest operators (for example:=  https://b4rn.org.uk/b4rn-service/gbvs/ = ;) Otherwise USO policies are mainly a form of public subsidy, a form of mon= opoly, to reinforce the incumbent, with the excuse of the underserved and un= connected.

Leandro.<= o:p>

 

On 21 Oct 2018, at 18:15, Vint Cerf <vint=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

 

=

Steve is spot on. 

V

 

=

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018, 09:53 Steve Song <= ;stevesong@nsrc.org> wrote:

Hi Amelia, Sonia, 

&nbs= p;

I agree this is a = very interesting and timely debate and I would be happy to participate in a = discussion on this.  

 

Uni= versal service funds that involve (or in many cases are legally restricted t= o) giving money back to the incumbents to build out infrastructure has prove= n (over and over and over again) to be a terrible idea.  I hope we can = agree that we should stop doing that.  For me the issue is about power = and control and the way it is used to impede competition.  The cost of = technology has plummeted in both fibre and wireless technologies.  In t= heory that should have been a boon for competition but high spectrum auction= fees and licenses along with exclusive control of fibre backbones has creat= ed an almost impenetrable barrier to market entry.  Any government inte= rvention in universal service should obliged to address the issue of market = permeability as well as ownership of and access to core networks.=

 

Cheers... Steve

 

On Sat, 20 Oct 2018 at 07:07, Sonia Jorge <soni= a.jorge@webfoundation.org> wrote:

Hi All,=  

 

Interesting discussion here= . One that might warrant a webinar/conference call among interested people? = Steve, what do you think? I would be happy to join a stimulating discussion = on the topic, starting with your blog and the Access Model. =

 

Amelia, can you point me to some evidence or = a paper (anything you may have) that shows that relationship between USO and= quality of infrastructure? I find that very difficult to believe but open t= o be proven wrong. 

 

Something = important to keep in mind is that countries where USO have been more instrum= ental are also countries that have traditionally been poorer and behind in t= erms of infrastructure development; this is certainly the case in some South= ern European countries and maybe Eastern European ones as well. So the level= of economic development overall is a key variable. 

As for Afri= ca and/or infrastructure investments, I could share a lot here, but for now = let me call your attention to some reports we produced and that can add to t= he discussion. 

= - A4AI=E2=80=99s annual Affordability Report: htt= ps://a4ai.org/affordability-report/report/2017/. Note that the 20= 18 report will be launched and published on Tuesday and addresses key questi= ons relevant to this discussion, specially on costs associated with infrastr= ucture investment

- a= recent blog on infrastructure costs and challenges: https://a4ai..org/affordable-internet-access-the-cost= -challenge/

 

Best= ,

Sonia Jorge 

Executive Director, A4AI

Head of Digital Inclusion, Web Foundation

=

1-617-905-7819

=


On Oct 20, 20= 18, at 05:33, Amelia Andersdotter <amelia@article19..org&= gt; wrote:

Hi all,
=
It might be helpful to know that EU countries where Universal ServiceObligations have been extensively used and applied, also typically have
= worse infrastructure than EU countries where USO wasn't well applied.
App= lying USO means you put the government in a position where it faces
off w= ith the service provider under USO in a negotiation. The service
provider= has information advantage and typically a better relationship
to its con= sumers than the government has to its citizens (so a
communications advan= tage too). I lack experience of the African markets
and their regulators,= but in broad strokes those are the issues faced in
various European juri= sdictions with USO and I'm assuming similar
difficulties would arise in t= he African setting. This is a bit
theoretical, and I'm just curious how t= o avoid these information
asymmetries?

As it is described by Steve= n, the current feudalism (operators A, B and
C all collaborate as soon as= they own physical fibre networks) also
incentivises many actors to get i= nto the infrastructure market. That's
fundamentally a good thing: it mean= s not all the last-mile is owned by a
few big actors who need to be regul= ated by a regulator who is
fundamentally at a disadvantage compared to th= e big actors. It's the
main criticism targetting the Local Loop Unbundlin= g reform of 1999 in
the EU as well - challengers don't invest enough in l= ast-mile
infrastructure (except in those EU markets where many different = actors
have had regulatory incentives to build their own networks, or whe= re
there has been purposeful public investment in last-mile). Or am I
= misunderstanding something?

best regards,

Amelia


On 2018-10-04 20:52, Steve Song wrote:

Hi Mallory,=

 

Thanks for that!  I think you are on exactly the right track in term= s

of thinking about economic models.&n= bsp; Thanks to Erick Huerta of

Rhizoma= tica, I am very taken with the thinking of French economic

historian, Fernand Braudel..  Braudel argues that = the world has three

economies not one.=   A global economy which is the well-known

capitalist economic model where monopoly is the perfect end-game i= n

theory for every player.  Googl= e, Colgate, Coca-Cola, all the usual

s= uspects form part of this economy.  The second economy is the Local

Economy where services are specific to th= e city/community where you

live. = This might be your local butcher, baker, plumbers or even

larger service provider which offers services that grow= out of local

demand and which serve l= ocal needs in more unique ways than the Global

Economy.  The third economy is the Subsistence economy where m= arket

forces may not operate because t= here is not sufficient traditional

cap= ital to make it work..  This is the world of the informal economy<= /o:p>

with barters, cooperatives, community initi= atives that directly

contribute to the= overall economy but are largely unmeasured by

traditional statistics.  And woven among these are both commer= cial and

commons models, which can ope= rate with varying success at the

diffe= rent levels.  

 

When viewed through this lens, it is easy to= see how regulation has

only enabled t= he global economy in telecommunication and that there is

=

a need for enabling regulations to nurture telecom initia= tives in the

Local and Subsistence eco= nomies.  

 <= /p>

For me this also highlights a key flaw in models = like the World Bank's

Access Gap model=

is not so = much that the model is wrong, it is just one-dimensional;

assuming that successful global capitalism is the best o= f all possible

outcomes.

 

Writin= g more about this shortly.

 =

Cheers... Steve

 

 

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 at 10:57, Mallory Knodel <mallory@article19.org

 

 = ;  Hi Steve,

 

   Thanks for sharing. I read i= t last night and I really enjoyed it.. I

   think the metaphor is solid economically. And political= ly, well, that

   could= be another post in and of itself..

&n= bsp;

   The agrarian co= mmons would of course be ideal, but what we have is a

   sort of old-world economic structure that = politically controls and

  &= nbsp;profits from (what should be) the commons. This sets you up nicely to

   call for modern econo= mic models ranging from squarely capitalist to

   socialist, and even (back to) the commons!

 

   I'm CCing HRPC because it might be of interest to those w= ho have

   raised<= /o:p>

   issues of centralisation = on the list in the past.

 

   -Mallory

 

 &nbs= p; On 04/10/2018 15:30, Steve Song wrote:

Hi all,

 

This is= a reflection on the current state of terrestrial fibre

=

infrastructure in Sub-Saharan Africa (but I think applies just a= bout

everywhere).  

=
<= p class=3DMsoNormal> 

=

C= urious to know how apt you feel the metaphor is or any other

<= /div>

 =

Thanks..... Steve Song

 

_______________________________________________

=

&= nbsp;

 

 

 = ;  -- 

   Mallory Knodel

   Head of Digital :: <= span style=3D'color:purple'>article19.org <http://article19.org>

   gpg fingerprint :: E3EB 63E0 65A3 B2= 40 BCD9  B071 0C32 A271 BD3C C780

 

   ____________= ___________________________________

&n= bsp;  gaia mailing list

 

 

=  

-- 

+1 902 529 0046

 

 

______________________________= _________________

hrpc mailing list

https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listin= fo/hrpc

=

-- 
Amelia Andersdo= tter
Technical Consultant, Digital Programme

ARTICLE19
www.a= rticle19.org

PGP: 3D5D B6CA B852 B988 055A 6A6F FEF1 C294 = B4E8 0B55


_______________________________________________
gaia= mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.i= rtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

____________________________________= ___________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia


=

 

-- =

<= div>

 

___________________________________________= ____
gaia mailing list
= gaia@irtf.org
h= ttps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

____________________________________= ___________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

=

_______________________________________________
g= aia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
https://ww= w.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia



-- 

Carlo= s Rey-Moreno, PhD

&qu= ot;Community and Local Access Networks" Project Coordinator 
Association for Progressive Communica= tions
h= ttps://www.apc.org/en/project/local-access-networks-can-unconnected-connect-= themselves

Cel: +27 (0) 76 986 3633
Skype: carlos.reymoreno Twitter: Creym

_______________= ________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org<= /a>
= https://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia=

_______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
= ga= ia@irtf.org
https://www.irtf.org/mailman/l= istinfo/gaia

<smime.p7s>_= ______________________________________________
gaia mailing list
gaia@irtf.org
h= ttps://www.irtf.org/mailman/listinfo/gaia

 

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