Re: [Gen-art] [lisp] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-lisp-rfc8113bis-01

Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Thu, 20 December 2018 23:24 UTC

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To: Dino Farinacci <farinacci@gmail.com>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "gen-art@ietf.org" <gen-art@ietf.org>, "lisp@ietf.org" <lisp@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-lisp-rfc8113bis.all@ietf.org" <draft-ietf-lisp-rfc8113bis.all@ietf.org>
References: <154518630870.5131.10104452678736081639@ietfa.amsl.com> <da4ecf32-a1dd-1854-642e-77df66e61fdb@joelhalpern.com> <e439c990-7484-870f-f2fc-ac2300ae26d7@gmail.com> <f7ab6c01-b8bc-02ee-c491-da365d2e79ea@joelhalpern.com> <407BD77D-F364-4989-A6D2-C75DF9914402@gmail.com> <9cc58af9-2bcf-89d7-a2ae-3fc80e723d78@joelhalpern.com> <D12A1D05-F75D-46FF-A5AA-991817AA42BC@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302E05D7D4@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <BAA2051B-A9E8-4D08-BD8C-EB7BD3FDB2AE@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302E05E137@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <B015DEB0-CFE2-4320-A33D-5478BDA16623@gmail.com> <dc81cad8-0bf5-9060-78a2-1537841ccf7d@gmail.com> <583bf0d5-3de8-adba-7445-54ec4779a345@joelhalpern.com> <48ED1BED-7055-4DF4-AF69-E764E5ADABDB@gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:24:45 +1300
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Subject: Re: [Gen-art] [lisp] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-lisp-rfc8113bis-01
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On 2018-12-21 09:18, Dino Farinacci wrote:
> Brian wants to drop the reference to 6833bis from 8113bis. I am fine with that. That reference being at the top of the draft saying “Updates 6833bis”. If we remove that, he may concur. Please confirm Brian (again).

Yes, that would resolve my concern.

> Like I have mentioned to you before, the IETF “Updates” lingo is confusing and really not useful unless a draft replaces a previous draft. And this is not the case here.

That's a debate for the RFC-interest list perhaps. IMHO the issue is that "Updates" sometimes means "Extends" and sometimes means "Modifies". "Obsoletes" sometimes also implies "Replaces", but that doesn't seem to create confusion.

Thanks
   Brian

> 
> Dino
> 
>> On Dec 20, 2018, at 11:58 AM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; wrote:
>>
>> Dino, Med, please confirm if I am reading the thread properly:
>>
>> I believe that the proposal is to make the small change below to 6833bis and to drop the "updates" reference from 8113bis to 6833bis.
>>
>> I believe Dino's question was whether Brian agreed that the combination suggested would address his concern.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Joel
>>
>> On 12/20/18 2:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>> I may be missing something but I don't see how 8113bis can
>>> logically cite 8113, which it replaces.
>>> Frankly I think you've collectively created a plate of citation
>>> spaghetti by not moving the IANA considerations for the type field
>>> registry into 6830bis, which is where they naturally belong. If you
>>> don't want to do that, I think you have to leave them in 8113bis and
>>> simply lose the citation of 6833bis, which serves no purpose that
>>> I can see.
>>> Regards
>>>    Brian
>>> On 2018-12-21 06:32, Dino Farinacci wrote:
>>>> I’ll make that change if Brian thinks it fixes the issues he raised.
>>>>
>>>> Dino
>>>> ngo 
>>>>> On Dec 19, 2018, at 11:35 PM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Dino,
>>>>>
>>>>> OLD:
>>>>>
>>>>>   Values in the "Not Assigned" range can be assigned according to
>>>>>   procedures in [RFC8126].
>>>>>
>>>>> NEW:
>>>>>
>>>>>   Values in the "Not Assigned" range can be assigned via Standards
>>>>>   Action [RFC8113].
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Med
>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>> De : Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]
>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 19 décembre 2018 19:00
>>>>>> À : BOUCADAIR Mohamed TGI/OLN
>>>>>> Cc : Joel M. Halpern; Brian E Carpenter; gen-art@ietf.org; lisp@ietf.org;
>>>>>> draft-ietf-lisp-rfc8113bis.all@ietf.org
>>>>>> Objet : Re: [lisp] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-lisp-rfc8113bis-01
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What does fixing in (1) mean?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dino
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Dec 19, 2018, at 3:51 AM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>;
>>>>>> <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>; wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brian, whether to maintain the document standalone was discussed by the WG.
>>>>>> You may refer, for example, to the message from Deborah which clarifies this
>>>>>> point: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/lisp/current/msg07886.html. One
>>>>>> of the outcomes of that discussion is to add an "updates" header to 8113bis.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FWIW, one of the issues that led to that conclusion was whether to cite
>>>>>> rfc8113bis as normative in 6833bis (the approach I initially supported) and
>>>>>> agreed by Dino (https://www.ietf.org/mail-
>>>>>> archive/web/lisp/current/msg07882.html). Deborah convinced me that citing
>>>>>> 8113bis will lead to circular dependency. Which is a fair argument.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The "updates" tag was justified as follows:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (1)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RFC6833bis includes the following:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Values in the "Not Assigned" range can be assigned according to
>>>>>>>  procedures in [RFC8126].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That text is updated by RFC8113bis to be aligned with 8113:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Values can be assigned via Standards Action
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (2)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> RFC8113bis extends the type field to grab more bits/values when the
>>>>>> available types are exhausted. This is captured in 8113bis:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  The values in the range 0-1023 are assigned via Standards Action.
>>>>>>>  This range is provisioned to anticipate, in particular, the
>>>>>>>  exhaustion of the LISP Packet types.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dino: If (1) is fixed directly in RFC6833bis, then I'm fine to remove the
>>>>>> "updates" header because (2) can be also seen as an extension.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>> Med
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>>>>>>> De : Dino Farinacci [mailto:farinacci@gmail.com]
>>>>>>>> Envoyé : mercredi 19 décembre 2018 06:37
>>>>>>>> À : Joel M. Halpern
>>>>>>>> Cc : Brian E Carpenter; gen-art@ietf.org; lisp@ietf.org; draft-ietf-lisp-
>>>>>>>> rfc8113bis.all@ietf.org
>>>>>>>> Objet : Re: [lisp] Genart last call review of draft-ietf-lisp-rfc8113bis-
>>>>>> 01
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mohmad to comment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dino
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 8:49 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>; wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> That is the other fix he offered.  Just remove the updates tag.
>>>>>>>>> I will leav eit to you and the the authors to determine which is correct.
>>>>>>>>> Yours,
>>>>>>>>> Joel
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 12/18/18 11:43 PM, Dino Farinacci wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 8113bis should say that is it *extending* the type field so we can have
>>>>>>>> more types. The word “update” I always had a problem with because it can
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> interpreted as “replacing". Replacing something to fix a problem.
>>>>>>>>>> 8113 is simply asking for one of the type value codepoint, so there can
>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>> another format to have more types.
>>>>>>>>>> Dino
>>>>>>>>>>> On Dec 18, 2018, at 9:24 PM, Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com>;
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Authors: that sounds like a reasonable addition to me?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yours,
>>>>>>>>>>> Joel
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/18/18 10:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2018-12-19 15:46, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> This is part of the package to move the coherent set of base LISP
>>>>>> specs
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to PS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The reason we did this rather than folding it into 6830bis / 6833bis
>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that we had originally simply cited 8113, and then realized that
>>>>>> needed
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to move to PS along with everything else.  It seemed (and is) simpler
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> do it separately rather than to further modify 6830bis / 6933bis.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As for why it updates 6833bis, that is because one of the cahnges in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> moving the set to PS was to improve the split as to which information
>>>>>>>>>>>>> belonged in which document.
>>>>>>>>>>>> OK, but I still don't find it logical The text doesn't explain which
>>>>>>>> part of
>>>>>>>>>>>> 6833bis is impacted, and normally these days we require such an
>>>>>>>> explanation.
>>>>>>>>>>>> And if there is an impact, you're missing the opportunity of fixing
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> error
>>>>>>>>>>>> or gap in 6833bis, so the reader of 6833bis will be none the wiser
>>>>>>>> unless
>>>>>>>>>>>> you insert a reference to 8113bis.
>>>>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, if there is no error or gap, you don't need
>>>>>>>> "Updates:"
>>>>>>>>>>>> at all. (Unfortunately, we don't have an "Extends:" header.)
>>>>>>>>>>>>  Brian
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yours,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 12/18/18 9:25 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reviewer: Brian Carpenter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Review result: Ready with Issues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gen-ART Last Call review of draft-ietf-lisp-rfc8113bis-01
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am the assigned Gen-ART reviewer for this draft. The General Area
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Review Team (Gen-ART) reviews all IETF documents being processed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> by the IESG for the IETF Chair.  Please treat these comments just
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like any other last call comments.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more information, please see the FAQ at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://wiki.tools.ietf.org/area/gen/trac/wiki/GenArtfaq>;.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Document: draft-ietf-lisp-rfc8113bis-01.txt
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reviewer: Brian Carpenter
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Review Date: 2018-12-19
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IETF LC End Date: 2018-12-27
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> IESG Telechat date:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Summary: Ready with issues
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Comments:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I note that this is being raised from Experimental to the standards
>>>>>>>> track.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Presumably that depends on the base LISP spec becoming PS.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minor issues:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -------------
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "This document updates I-D.ietf-lisp-rfc6833bis." The text doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explain which text is updated. This is in contrast to RFC8113, which
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explains clearly how it updates RFC6830 (*not* RFC6833). Why doesn't
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this draft claim to update rfc6830bis? I'm going to assume that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is an error.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In fact, why wasn't the definition of the LISP Packet Types registry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> moved into the base spec (rfc6830bis)? That is where it belongs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Since rfc6830bis (and rfc6833bis) are still under IESG review,
>>>>>>>> anything
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in them that needs updating should be updated! The fact is that
>>>>>>>> rfc8113bis
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extends rfc6830bis, which is not the same thing as "updates".
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If the WG thinks that implementers of 6830bis need to read 8113bis,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there should be a normative reference in 6830bis to 8113bis.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> lisp mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> lisp@ietf.org
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/lisp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
> 
>