Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt
Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com> Tue, 28 September 2021 15:06 UTC
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To: Lars Eggert <lars@eggert.org>
Cc: gendispatch@ietf.org
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From: Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
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Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2021 11:06:34 -0400
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Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/28dJBag9rcJ0SnJGTexUOsDP2rU>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eggert-bcp45bis-04.txt
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Hi Lars, First, thanks for the explanation, as it helps to make the differences in our positions clear. Of course it's not unusual that (for better or worse) when revising a document we find a conflict between a desire to make only simple revisions, versus needing to update every part of the document, not only to fix bugs but to update references, use more modern notation (e.g. ABNF), impose new minimum requirements (e.g. TLS version), etc., because many things assumed by the previous version of the document have changed in the time since that version was published. > However, more fundamental changes to this process, suggested by you and others, such as appointing SAAs through the NomCom, making the SAA team the IAB's responsibility, closing the discussion list entirely, etc. would go beyond the scope of BCP45 and the minor update that BCP45bis is intending to be. I would therefore prefer to see them made independently from this minor revision. I disagree that these would be expanding the scope of BCP45, as they deal with the same topics as BCP45 does. (FWIW I'm not in favor of closing the ietf@ list, though I've seen that suggestion elsewhere.) > I also think someone other than the IETF Chair should be the editor for such a larger revision of the process. I concur. >> These days, it seems that suppression of inconvenient input is now much more in fashion, and is even justified as enforcing "professionalism". So I think BCP45 needs to be updated to fit the current times. > I still disagree with your characterization that any "suppression of inconvenient input" is happening or has happened, and will point out again that BCP45 was already concerned with maintaining a level of professionalism on the discussion list; this is not terminology I added or even changed in BCP45bis. We do indeed disagree on that, as I have personally experienced efforts to malign me and to discourage my input, and I've seen others treated similarly. And those experiences have convinced me without a doubt that BCP45 has been used to justify efforts to control the IETF conversation that were inconsistent with its original intent, and that the language in BCP45 therefore needs to be updated. Keith
- [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draft-eg… internet-drafts
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Barry Leiba
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Wilton (rwilton)
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lloyd W
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lloyd W
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] New Version Notification - draf… Lars Eggert