From nobody Tue Mar 30 15:59:34 2021 Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4B33A12B6 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:59:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.887 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.887 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R9viEcixaD8f for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx36-out21.antispamcloud.com (mx36-out21.antispamcloud.com [209.126.121.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1E913A12B7 for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:59:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xse354.mail2web.com ([66.113.197.100] helo=xse.mail2web.com) by mx133.antispamcloud.com with esmtp (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lRNKU-000rwS-5l for gendispatch@ietf.org; Wed, 31 Mar 2021 00:59:25 +0200 Received: from xsmtp22.mail2web.com (unknown [10.100.68.61]) by xse.mail2web.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F94dK5jgpz17WW for ; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.5.2.16] (helo=xmail06.myhosting.com) by xsmtp22.mail2web.com with esmtps (TLS1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lRNKP-00062z-L7 for gendispatch@ietf.org; Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:59:17 -0700 Received: (qmail 21641 invoked from network); 30 Mar 2021 22:59:16 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO [192.168.1.104]) (Authenticated-user:_huitema@huitema.net@[172.58.46.191]) (envelope-sender ) by xmail06.myhosting.com (qmail-ldap-1.03) with ESMTPA for ; 30 Mar 2021 22:59:16 -0000 To: gendispatch@ietf.org, Lars Eggert References: <161701910454.13044.908232164554537032@ietfa.amsl.com> <55b4e061-f25d-8958-1e75-868bec0c735e@gmail.com> From: Christian Huitema Message-ID: <1cf6c925-7757-3504-51d7-f06681aae762@huitema.net> Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 15:59:15 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.9.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <55b4e061-f25d-8958-1e75-868bec0c735e@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BA71991C3F10146EF9E6393E" Content-Language: en-US X-Originating-IP: 66.113.197.100 X-Spampanel-Domain: xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Username: 66.113.197.0/24 Authentication-Results: antispamcloud.com; auth=pass smtp.auth=66.113.197.0/24@xsmtpout.mail2web.com X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Class: ham X-Spampanel-Outgoing-Evidence: Combined (0.05) X-Recommended-Action: accept X-Filter-ID: Pt3MvcO5N4iKaDQ5O6lkdGlMVN6RH8bjRMzItlySaT/J3JEdBoOTt2ZZfxe04D2oPUtbdvnXkggZ 3YnVId/Y5jcf0yeVQAvfjHznO7+bT5zo9mwGQSX8aTDq8fl2bpi0xEQ8ojMxulvqpenB6oiqu8gN /EyREE3YB/fhubmAJ7Tz5WII1Z6TfVcq4Ezy3IFnSxIRXVMlFuiz/acFNeeXtxN2fFxZWB9eYgpR BRu3UlDHMLIJYRi1cXH9Dbm+IxLVukujs7wKDOGxE6aVvvE3KpotTbzF8bFslzcWfB/84WX1KHe/ FVcvFYE7DSY4uAuvkVWClPVvbW5lVyQanRxw5hTHswbbB/ha+ZWrSAi8Skyxe17QIfgTGOgXzm19 /3QDep61KNolF2DlH2a2LdpMMmtrv2iUsvl2CC901V0YBrviEnzvvDcGs5qmm9XDE2pdZWZmIMWJ G2DzNierwWd45v2o1X92Cn4UU9JJ17dQkS7izDj4VfLGYhV5rU4pWppWERZjMvwfvbhZOry+t8BT U6S6BiS1pgrDY9yDlGBfLaRjewJ1p2KNOGtnsuIcf3b/prnOfejoy0ryl/SE9sCR4JkwTwd6I5MF c+Z5FxsZqYBzHDeqqFz43py4SDhdaHkWtttM+AEGzHMWbMjn66ZaUCrNIt931t/mGMxkBVmaFrpF +0/han/kiKW/qtPYIFYqYu8C5mJ57ZG9g9QfbBpIF27aVf1TRT+OeWs/DmnyKbzujwN5vAr2fQEN gxhN/KmvT74ZEqLd8l9FM+v8+4kcTYhAwKlCjLrq1J5TO8rfzAEKu19hO5DULTHYDQNvhFY/YSe7 BdSTEVSKyDDcf4YiaI3Rlg+lhObuK0fr7gra4b5m4zuNRcgRKiGg7nXFaZTxx0amNcFKKykqEJXf uqkSPBFw4xmsAfnjeoFNkOjBzHM9va+zHJ1uMyxbJq8sS5DA9QD4Mrh3Bu2caezxvyq0YcMzxHWq +DzXvdqOFJyZFEBrwytzyq4nhu0+m3/YUu4UViekgyyW3O5RhlUL6+pD+okHwEE9dSrTROzD4Zdv KoVh3+MrOOK4NgfP/RZivWtTxypUhWZ7DV/QthUn4wTjFg== X-Report-Abuse-To: spam@quarantine11.antispamcloud.com Archived-At: Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: General Area Dispatch List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2021 22:59:29 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BA71991C3F10146EF9E6393E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think this draft needs, at a very minimum, an editing pass. The=20 problem starts with the first paragraph: The IETF discussion list [IETF-DISCUSS] furthers the development and specification of Internet technology through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated mailing lists exists. As this is the most general IETF mailing list, considerable latitude is allowed.= OK. So you are telling us that there is this discussion list, and "consid= erable latitude is allowed". But that's not quite the point of the draft. Indeed, the next sentence sa= ys: =C2=A0Advertising, whether to solicit business or promote employment opportunities, falls well outside the range of acceptable topics, as do discussions of a personal nature. Why do we have to say that in the introduction? What is this document tha= t jumps from latitude to, by the way, no advertising? I think there is something missing. The v= ery purpose of the document appears to be, "considerable latitude is allowed, but there are = limits. In the following section, we explain these limits, and the processes used to enf= orce them." And then we can have an open discussion about what the limits shall be. A= dvertising, tone and code of conduct, overlap with WG lists, etc. -- Christian Huitema > On 30-Mar-21 00:58, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote: >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir= ectories. >> >> >> Title : IETF Discussion List Charter >> Author : Lars Eggert >> Filename : draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt >> Pages : 6 >> Date : 2021-03-29 >> >> Abstract: >> The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list= >> furthers the development and specification of Internet technology >> through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated >> mailing lists exists. As this is the most general IETF mailing li= st, >> considerable latitude is allowed. Advertising, whether to solicit= >> business or promote employment opportunities, falls well outside t= he >> range of acceptable topics, as do discussions of a personal nature= =2E >> >> This document obsoletes RFC3005. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/ >> >> There is also an HTML version available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.html >> >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-eggert-bcp45bis-01 >> >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of subm= ission >> until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> I-D-Announce mailing list >> I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html >> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >> --------------BA71991C3F10146EF9E6393E Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think this draft needs, at a very minimum, an editing pass. The problem starts with the first paragraph:


   The IETF discussion list [IETF-DISCUSS] furthers the development and
   specification of Internet technology through the general discussion
   of topics for which no dedicated mailing lists exists.  As this is
   the most general IETF mailing list, considerable latitude is allowed.

OK. So you are telling us that there is this discussion list, and "considerable latitude is allowed".
But that's not quite the point of the draft. Indeed, the next sentence says:

 Advertising, whether to solicit business or promote employment
   opportunities, falls well outside the range of acceptable topics, as
   do discussions of a personal nature.

Why do we have to say that in the introduction? What is this document that jumps from latitude
to, by the way, no advertising? I think there is something missing. The very purpose of the
document appears to be, "considerable latitude is allowed, but there are limits. In the
following section, we explain these limits, and the processes used to enforce them."

And then we can have an open discussion about what the limits shall be. Advertising, tone and
code of conduct, overlap with WG lists, etc.

-- Christian Huitema

On 30-Mar-21 00:58, internet-drafts@ietf.org wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.


        Title           : IETF Discussion List Charter
        Author          : Lars Eggert
	Filename        : draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.txt
	Pages           : 6
	Date            : 2021-03-29

Abstract:
   The Internet Engineering Task Force (IETF) discussion mailing list
   furthers the development and specification of Internet technology
   through the general discussion of topics for which no dedicated
   mailing lists exists.  As this is the most general IETF mailing list,
   considerable latitude is allowed.  Advertising, whether to solicit
   business or promote employment opportunities, falls well outside the
   range of acceptable topics, as do discussions of a personal nature.

   This document obsoletes RFC3005.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-eggert-bcp45bis/

There is also an HTML version available at:
https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01.html

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-eggert-bcp45bis-01


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


_______________________________________________
I-D-Announce mailing list
I-D-Announce@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt



    

  


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