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Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt

Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net> Mon, 06 September 2021 03:08 UTC

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From: Mark Nottingham <mnot@mnot.net>
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Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 13:08:09 +1000
Cc: "lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk" <lloyd.wood=40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org>, "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com>, GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>
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References: <163037412640.15437.266878243771416247@ietfa.amsl.com> <05211e39-419d-2455-ffa3-1a55fab22a48@joelhalpern.com> <CANMZLAaiPjeO7wMrfjjd5-XJpzYm3iUTExdUqD+JBm9mCYgvNg@mail.gmail.com> <CAChr6SztfuauB1vTLpu6L-AeaShRfZ-Ybs_d+2p8oaMBBvKjyQ@mail.gmail.com> <f706ce7f-2967-50ad-eaf0-e9b168b5a6e8@gmail.com> <CAChr6Sw+KVW_Jq5LZFN_KJ9ygxb9=sFoRNs2yAPeiPLV3A1Y=w@mail.gmail.com> <9b819b2d-4de2-800d-190c-4c7cbfc2465e@gmail.com> <CAChr6Sy_F6yg2UGC_LSBvpMQr25bwH=CUq9jh78_h13iyyh9yg@mail.gmail.com> <7da21d8a-bdc1-6974-c485-9ed1b2e4910a@joelhalpern.com> <CAChr6SxzYCC=eYySGuAeHY6=pXcAR+sBvAR7iuqTqcDwitb4LA@mail.gmail.com> <CAChr6Sy3=xWWejpPrmMRSgE18CNVs29NtxzJfv_nm55oXq215g@mail.gmail.com> <a508dcfb-26f6-89f2-4ef3-a7befe9db95a@joelhalpern.com> <CAChr6SzFb0dPiMjysknHfBMk1__HRPb463bLCveJQq=fmpOKZQ@mail.gmail.com> <53004065-59f5-d95c-a95a-3c0d1af0f0e1@joelhalpern.com> <CAChr 6SwdOKkkY2rtR5c-zxtojzpkiPwsQco2tKgJtqdxgTsfZQ@mail.gmail.com> <1412729120.4105523.1630889467040@mail.yahoo.com> <36eefb6c-8118-96c3-9b56-fc1380acda3d@gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] I-D Action: draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00.txt
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Probably because of things like this:
  https://www.justice.gov/atr/case-document/complaint-0

Cheers,


> On 6 Sep 2021, at 1:04 pm, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> On 06-Sep-21 12:51, lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> " - Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated. 
>> - Bright line dos/don’ts miss important nuance.
>> - Mechanical recitals become ‘white noise.’ "
>> 
>> I am very much in agreement with this.
>> 
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-halpern-gendispatch-antitrust-00
>> 
>> says
>> 
>> "   participants should not discuss the following topics:
>> [..]
>> *  employee compensation or benefits"
>> 
>> 
>> IETF engineers can't discuss employee compensation or benefits?
> 
> What the draft advises is that such matters should not be part of a standardisation discussion. Not being an anti-trust or competition lawyer, I don't know why such a discussion might be a legal exposure, but it would be a very silly thing to discuss in a standardisation context, so I can't see any conceivable objection to the advice.
> 
>   Brian
> 
>> 
>> Frankly, from an engineer perspective, that sounds not so much anti-trust, as anti-union.
>> 
>> Lloyd Wood 
>> lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, 6 September 2021, 04:10:04 GMT+10, Rob Sayre <sayrer@gmail.com> wrote: 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Sep 5, 2021 at 10:51 AM Joel M. Halpern <jmh@joelhalpern.com> wrote:
>>> The point of the exercise from my perspective is to give people 
>>> community agreed advice on how to avoid antitrust issues.  This helps 
>>> protect everyone.
>> 
>> Well, I guess the counterpoint is that section "5. Recommended Behavior" suffers from all of the issues outlined in that 2020 IETF LLC statement.* The IETF LLC had the same counsel at the time, btw. 
>> 
>> - Summaries oversimplify, and grow outdated. 
>> - Bright line dos/don’ts miss important nuance.
>> - Mechanical recitals become ‘white noise.’ 
>> 
>> By refraining from guiding behavior around a 6 point bulleted list, my edits make it clear that such summaries do little to "protect" participants or the IETF. I mean, it seems like I'm the only person that has ever read the existing slides thoroughly enough to notice that they are buggy.
>> 
>> There are plenty of other sections in the draft that seem fine, and I have no objection to the draft appearing linked from the "Note Well" page in general.
>> 
>> thanks,
>> Rob
>> 
>> * https://www.ietf.org/blog/ietf-llc-statement-competition-law-issues/
>>  
>> 
> 
> -- 
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--
Mark Nottingham   https://www.mnot.net/

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