Return-Path: X-Original-To: gendispatch@mail2.ietf.org Delivered-To: gendispatch@mail2.ietf.org Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 275905834ACD for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 04:45:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at ietf.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: mail2.ietf.org (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail2.ietf.org ([166.84.6.31]) by localhost (mail2.ietf.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id x_pYbGJu5ypH for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 04:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oa1-x29.google.com (mail-oa1-x29.google.com [IPv6:2001:4860:4864:20::29]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature ECDSA (P-256) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail2.ietf.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B0F95834AC5 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 04:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oa1-x29.google.com with SMTP id 586e51a60fabf-30cce90227aso1174820fac.1 for ; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 04:45:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20230601; t=1756035914; x=1756640714; darn=ietf.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=3HOi4nD7TojT1xrgon/7+nKg/7Wi7UJ+32UAcpfxQs4=; b=Bw/PZWqeB6kHI6VR1cMSsbBiy6tNZ41I5ygqTyEkD+robX/sbenuB5hLWYWFrIKQJy 5ecbuRTX0Yasq91BP6g95PkQf/F1Swm4enXoy6IdIZNHuep1rtIQjMFC+H8HdUlH+J+3 cZ6GwRaBOVZq/gTrS9O9qpelqlzXtynaDjYnaY3TYmwuOf62sIBcVdcapjpSwQ1V9vfv niFUSxtduj23/kpCczlWTzkeUsicIbCIjGjK/m/URhfrMi3yfUVEJElMhxzbx9+IRJ4z 65O3VVtnsJ7d5eQXuKI0JTK4Xoq7LV95EegyxkZ4LCu3cforJTHNb2cbiHHw18/7SbcS cb1Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1756035914; x=1756640714; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=3HOi4nD7TojT1xrgon/7+nKg/7Wi7UJ+32UAcpfxQs4=; b=Quf65EsZBVN6ylt6TcDR7LrLZAF1hlncw5Gzb6goaRFyqj59tBhtAfElEqbVMtneIb WtzflIwaisHtd+gMBmsa4a/TPPEi7/h4rYZYuGgvBOVI6c4nccx4cNutvAm3tSjBILc3 s5XvrpATE6UHJ4rVyrDGYsZ1lhBu0E1f4W2v/gojUBQoRmGUr8qeHrCfYnQu0P2v78sz cCZYZBWS7GIZmkT7nNOfKA9EP0nXzms4zfTS/hYYIZNLPzfc0bVpcnimfbXi3wwIzmXN PUyzTvGrYdXyMS3s5hEVbRTP2D+4346AtBv392l5JgT6m7QwrKs8q6ORuFkSqCPTsVrT +sUA== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUQn9yiFLivB6yJLwfGOuhKrkl0DprtkyQwUwazSbGm05gDPz5CToofaWNGpXgh3o8BnCo6qIdoK3lLLw==@ietf.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0Yyywek+2G424g6Anv28cetxKmBdC8Zvqrq6xt6twKXYGQt70LoR a7G+PpKda0nnfznxTCdWK6LlIM/EzSYAiffC4Fsx/mdfukT0gDb+6lmb61xgYdmsW8FSRA7Beva /lq7+96EQGnPHGYgKAaUtTjX6V9YzkM6YTSpH X-Gm-Gg: ASbGnctKEgePvinmuZ6sKppTk3dvyIE+oLHhdFa00t9iFrH0L5S/iiO9HPcB/AUulZt jaNx6dosZt6OMYzdhR7aGK3veTsZqz2KTRXvQKvOqqiJz08etiBAPjk3Dch0X3O15F0556TMglW w+/AGrVnkYCAxpIQG7VWSZpZB2jvrerJZ/tvFhXZy+UX3Gg4GKOA9+HwL5RnMC+hr+SzYpveLee hgPDTXanQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IEN8vDRcheWqPlRKF6yaSGkov8hZmQ1GddwXDkvFvhPeKshA+CyfNGsY8dGDoQuQDbvxXvYGyOQ4X1JYpTR2XE= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6808:118d:b0:435:6cc4:9753 with SMTP id 5614622812f47-43785190f04mr3705259b6e.8.1756035913574; Sun, 24 Aug 2025 04:45:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <175321803910.2040999.1047828794410431812@dt-datatracker-7ff4b97469-cdtd8> <04d701dbfba1$2a829930$7f87cb90$@olddog.co.uk> <2118703976.825098.1756019192560@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <2118703976.825098.1756019192560@mail.yahoo.com> From: Karim Attoumani Mohamed Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2025 14:45:00 +0300 X-Gm-Features: Ac12FXztTy3_KDai-meSq0_XRkuu0lLnavE1j-ujqulrjGLiLNEArXNTpM3dNxQ Message-ID: To: lloyd.wood=40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000d771e5063d1af811" Message-ID-Hash: MOGJAJHXXCWAJUSMQN2OKHRBLV764GCN X-Message-ID-Hash: MOGJAJHXXCWAJUSMQN2OKHRBLV764GCN X-MailFrom: karimattoumanimohamed@gmail.com X-Mailman-Rule-Misses: dmarc-mitigation; no-senders; approved; emergency; loop; banned-address; member-moderation; nonmember-moderation; administrivia; implicit-dest; max-recipients; max-size; news-moderation; no-subject; digests; suspicious-header CC: "Rob Wilton (rwilton)" , "adrian@olddog.co.uk" , "gendispatch@ietf.org" X-Mailman-Version: 3.3.9rc6 Precedence: list Subject: =?utf-8?q?=5BGendispatch=5D_Re=3A_wiki_was_Re=3A_New_Version_Notification_fo?= =?utf-8?q?r_draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06=2Etxt?= List-Id: General Area Dispatch Archived-At: List-Archive: List-Help: List-Owner: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --000000000000d771e5063d1af811 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 Tools should not be a barrier for participation. We have many policy makers with valuables inputs but could not contribute via github. Inclusion and involvement start with how easy we can communicate together. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-attoumani-ietf-inclusion/03/ BR Karim Le dim. 24 ao=C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 10:06, a =C3=A9crit : > It is my belief is that the IETF should be using wiki technology > extensively, including in draft development. > > The current 'raise on issue about a draft on the mailing list - we've > listed your issue in github to kill this criticism - silence everafter' > isn't really working, is it? > > editing and discussion in a wiki with appropriate templates might bridge > the separation between mailing list and github, while also lowering the b= ar > to participation for new contributors. > > > Lloyd Wood > lloyd.wood@yahoo.co.uk > > > On Thursday, July 24, 2025, 00:44, Rob Wilton (rwilton) 40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote: > > Hi Adrian, > > Annoyingly for you, I=E2=80=99m not going to directly answer your questio= n > (because I don=E2=80=99t know the answer), but wanted to say: > > - I=E2=80=99m a strong proponent of documenting more operational pract= ice on > wiki pages, if they can be put somewhere sensible, and have owners who= keep > them up to date. This is because I believe that having a large set of= BCP > process documents does not make a good/easy end user interface for the > consumers of this material (i.e., authors & IETF participants). > - I think that there is some useful information in this document, and > getting it published somewhere would probably be helpful to the wider > community. > > > > Hence, my suggestion: > > (i) go straight to a 4-week IETF last call of the doc > (if you can find a willing AD) > > (ii) publish the agreed resultant text on wiki page. > > (iii) Or maybe publish on a WIP wiki page, and then last > call a 1-page doc containing a link to the wiki page content, and review > and achieve consensus on the content on the wiki. > > > > I=E2=80=99m sure that some folks may be appalled at my suggestions of jus= t > ignoring the IETF process and dispatch outcomes, but shrug, you=E2=80=99r= e welcome. > :-) > > Kind regards, > Rob > > > > > > *From: *Adrian Farrel > *Date: *Wednesday, 23 July 2025 at 09:12 > *To: *gendispatch@ietf.org > *Subject: *[Gendispatch] FW: New Version Notification for > draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt > > Hi GenDispatch, > > It's been a while since this work was "dispatched" to a new mailing list > with the long-term dispatch outcome of "AD sponsored RFC or a wiki". > > Over the months that followed, we have revised the draft a number of time= s > following reviews and discussions on experiment-guidance@ietf.org, and we > have picked up some extra material (especially wrt Operational > Considerations). > > At this point, with what the authors consider to be a complete document, > we'd like to come back to the dispatch outcomes and ask whether this grou= p > has further advice on "wiki or RFC". We can then bully the responsible AD > to do something. > > Cheers, > Adrian > > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Sent: 22 July 2025 22:01 > To: Adrian Farrel ; Ron Bonica > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt > > A new version of Internet-Draft draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt has > been > successfully submitted by Adrian Farrel and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp > Revision: 06 > Title: IETF Experiments > Date: 2025-07-22 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 10 > URL: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp/ > HTML: > https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.html > HTMLized: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp > Diff: > https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url2=3Ddraft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-= 06 > > Abstract: > > This document describes IETF protocol experiments and provides > guidelines for the publication of Experimental RFCs. > > > > The IETF Secretariat > > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list -- gendispatch@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to gendispatch-leave@ietf.org > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list -- gendispatch@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to gendispatch-leave@ietf.org > > -- > Gendispatch mailing list -- gendispatch@ietf.org > To unsubscribe send an email to gendispatch-leave@ietf.org > --000000000000d771e5063d1af811 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1=C2=A0
Tools should not be a bar= rier for participation.
We have many policy makers w= ith valuables inputs but could not contribute via github.
Inclusion and involvement start with how easy we can communicate toge= ther.

=

BR
Kar= im


Le=C2=A0dim. 24 ao= =C3=BBt 2025 =C3=A0 10:06, <lloyd.wood=3D40yahoo.co.uk@dmarc.ietf.org> a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
It is my belief is that the IETF should be using wiki technology extensivel= y, including in draft development.

The current 'rais= e on issue about a draft=C2=A0on the mailing list - we've listed=C2=A0y= our=C2=A0issue in github to kill this criticism=C2=A0- silence everafter= 9; isn't really working, is it?

editing and di= scussion in a wiki with appropriate templates=C2=A0might bridge the separat= ion between mailing list and github, while also lowering the bar to partici= pation for new contributors.


Lloyd Wood

On Thursday, July 24, 2025, 00:44, Rob W= ilton (rwilton) <rwilton=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

Hi Adrian,

Annoyingly for you, I=E2=80=99m not going to directly answer your question = (because I don=E2=80=99t know the answer), but wanted to say:

=20
  • I=E2=80=99m a strong proponent of documenting = more operational practice on wiki pages, if they can be put somewhere sensi= ble, and have owners who keep them up to date.=C2=A0 This is because I believe that= having a large set of BCP process documents does not make a good/easy end = user interface for the consumers of this material (i.e., authors & IETF= participants).
  • I think that there is some useful information in this document= , and getting it published somewhere would probably be helpful to the wider community.
=20

=C2=A0

=20

Hence, my suggestion:

=20

(i)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 go straight to a 4-week= IETF last call of the doc (if you can find a willing AD)

=20

(ii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 publish the agreed resu= ltant text on wiki page.

=20

(iii)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Or maybe publish on a W= IP wiki page, and then last call a 1-page doc containing a link to the wiki= page content, and review and achieve consensus on the content on the wiki.

=20

=C2=A0

=20

I=E2=80=99m sure that some folks may be a= ppalled at my suggestions of just ignoring the IETF process and dispatch ou= tcomes, but shrug, you=E2=80=99re welcome. :-)

Kind regards,
Rob

=20

=C2=A0

=20

=C2=A0

=20

From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
Date: Wednesday, 23 July 2025 at 09:12
To: gendis= patch@ietf.org <gendispatch@ietf.org>
Subject: [Gendispatch] FW: New Version Notification for draft-bonica= -gendispatch-exp-06.txt

=20

Hi GenDispatch= ,

It's been a while since this work was "dispatched" to a new m= ailing list with the long-term dispatch outcome of "AD sponsored RFC o= r a wiki".

Over the months that followed, we have revised the draft a number of times = following reviews and discussions on experiment-guidance@ietf.org, and we have p= icked up some extra material (especially wrt Operational Considerations).
At this point, with what the authors consider to be a complete document, we= 'd like to come back to the dispatch outcomes and ask whether this grou= p has further advice on "wiki or RFC". We can then bully the resp= onsible AD to do something.

Cheers,
Adrian

-----Original Message-----
From: interne= t-drafts@ietf.org <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
Sent: 22 July 2025 22:01
To: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>; Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt
A new version of Internet-Draft draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt has bee= n
successfully submitted by Adrian Farrel and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp
Revision: 06
Title:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 IETF Experiments
Date:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 2025-07-22
Group:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Individual Submission
Pages:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 10
URL:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.txt
Status:=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp/
HTML:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06.html HTMLized: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bonica-gendispatch-exp
Diff:=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://author-tools.ietf.org/iddiff?url2=3Ddraft-bonica-gendispatch-exp-06=

Abstract:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 This document describes IETF protocol experiments and provides=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 guidelines for the publication of Experimental RFCs.



The IETF Secretariat


--
Gendispatch mailing list -- gendispatch@ietf.org
To unsubscribe send an email to gendispatch-leave@ietf.org

<= /div>
= =20
--
Gendispatch mailing list -- gendispatch@ietf.org
To u= nsubscribe send an email to gendispatch-leave@ietf.org
--
Gendispatch mailing list -- gendispatch@ietf.org
To unsubscribe send an email to gendispatch-leave@ietf.org
--000000000000d771e5063d1af811--