Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com> Thu, 25 February 2021 03:20 UTC
Return-Path: <furry13@gmail.com>
X-Original-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Delivered-To: gendispatch@ietfa.amsl.com
Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DDE1D3A0DC6; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:20:33 -0800 (PST)
X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com
X-Spam-Flag: NO
X-Spam-Score: -1.848
X-Spam-Level:
X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.848 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_BLOCKED=0.001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no
Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com
Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 66lkbNSGjy2l; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:20:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: from mail-qk1-x72d.google.com (mail-qk1-x72d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::72d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A9543A0DD4; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:20:32 -0800 (PST)
Received: by mail-qk1-x72d.google.com with SMTP id m144so4427406qke.10; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:20:32 -0800 (PST)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/T17he2JsypbXDX+7bYW8XGdySQ22tYK3WjZsh5Avog=; b=EmZhrX/vszOMmn7M50h2RxT1NJgCxk83NoMc1oMQgn6l8L8kFLi+GpQkxb8yLcsNJf ZElN0RWLSc6+D2+yA7DKRw5O/9b4XYJGDn3ddmYl5660cKdIYMpRRTYIHrNrLpFG66tW gel479OAyC0iSdJEkoIs1g0tLSLbKwIrxqSoVxaemBDSTml8CEpOdPvI3KHHEilgUiV5 Wk4IhZwGIXMOYZ0UVil2WKGhIhWAg5xNePXzsVF2/4Y7MyP2qmKp9vhhWxKsMmFDvWVG E4YRCv7e8eN+dU8ZZC2VfYv6ScMs7qG+VqJg3Wzw/KTr+HopVJoSDs6IkOYArAt3B2QO QNJA==
X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/T17he2JsypbXDX+7bYW8XGdySQ22tYK3WjZsh5Avog=; b=ILp1NgVkq4ruD9VJGe3C0AJUqFLwmO+1R7yIwuyRTdBllTJp8s/ZIZxaT41/7EKA46 nkpVITeocSXHjnK1eQXHde16cJ5eJ6mr6tZrubJI3P4A0c10KnAzgYRyfjbgPRcTk29r XMy1Iv0wKLO9Teq8ab11bp95eTdQChuwXP+HCbp5+VY9o+w6+UVa4tBhzN3kPgt/LZif FnvtBXiS6JH8wOVBJyPHqhMa4hh3fwj2eOaQ5xsSDgIlpsJwffE4Nt9vcnUnzcZLyVRI 3RoBLggDlO6+d0mq089h+9HWMVTv9ilyRmH9g8Jc+8jer0YOn5oUFYTTWxu43z90/gUp RWjQ==
X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530UcBicUHbiSqAfFBw8B/RegmWCIzL9HTVRODPgUsG5SJ4EtKAN 6Q/J4OH2j24K3KLOesOt1wJYbWjc+WeODQm970w=
X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxiGZ+ZKT+1hulaF1pgcDUGREk69/8yNtFb+e0yE/D0XqQb9mafH+CDGMVkhHKi0BUPDMoxMETgJ9pEtWZ5+B4=
X-Received: by 2002:a37:a183:: with SMTP id k125mr1067978qke.332.1614223231330; Wed, 24 Feb 2021 19:20:31 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
References: <37eecb9b-f0eb-e21c-b162-b1f0339e4981@si6networks.com> <AM0PR08MB37168C83CF19A3CDFEF15FD8FA809@AM0PR08MB3716.eurprd08.prod.outlook.com> <af41fb36-ddbc-3fc8-d5b1-1b5ce3acf607@lounge.org>
In-Reply-To: <af41fb36-ddbc-3fc8-d5b1-1b5ce3acf607@lounge.org>
From: Jen Linkova <furry13@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 14:20:19 +1100
Message-ID: <CAFU7BATvDt6QwSRaS9656Gso+SGaS-RjTcX7gb9d763PBTK5aA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org>
Cc: Hannes Tschofenig <Hannes.Tschofenig@arm.com>, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com>, "ietf@ietf.org" <ietf@ietf.org>, GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>, Keith Moore <moore@network-heretics.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
Archived-At: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/BRPoLrEeWQf2RK1ETWkz2UjQFj8>
Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the IETF
X-BeenThere: gendispatch@ietf.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29
Precedence: list
List-Id: General Area Dispatch <gendispatch.ietf.org>
List-Unsubscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/options/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/gendispatch/>
List-Post: <mailto:gendispatch@ietf.org>
List-Help: <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/gendispatch>, <mailto:gendispatch-request@ietf.org?subject=subscribe>
X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 25 Feb 2021 03:20:34 -0000
On Wed, Feb 24, 2021 at 1:22 AM Dan Harkins <dharkins@lounge.org> wrote: > > I just took a quick look at the document and I missed one point that increasingly worries me working in the IETF, namely the increasing number of participants who are not interested to write any code*. > > That's a great point! One of the attractions (to me, at least) of the > IETF was > that it wasn't some guy with some slides and a story. It was someone > with an idea, > a reference implementation of the idea, and results of (partially) > deploying the > code and seeing what it did. That was very compelling. We learned things > from the > running code that actually helped improve the specification. We were doing > engineering! It's a very interesting comment, about 'not enough people writing the code'. Since I've joined the IETF I've been hearing people complaining about 'not enough operators here, where are they?' I'm a network engineer who has to deal with routers and switches running vendor's code and with endpoints running various OSes. So while I have some ideas of what improvements I need from a given protocol, I'd not be writing actual implementations, because I have no places to actually run it in the production. I'd rather collaborate with people who can write that code much faster and better than I would ever be able so I can run their code in production and provide some feedback from my operational experience. > Yes, there has been less and less a demand on running code (sadface > emoji) and > I share your worry. Not only are some participants not interested in > writing any > code, we are also coming up with work that does not require any code at all. Well, plenty of work in the Ops area is like that but I do not think it's a bad thing necessary. Are you saying we shouldn't be documenting best (and worst) practices? -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry
- [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in the … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dominique Lazanski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dominique Lazanski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Kyle Rose
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Juliana Guerra
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Carsten Bormann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … S Moonesamy
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF (was: Diversity … Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF (was: Diversity … Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Mary Barnes
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] coders in IETF Keith Moore
- [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inclusi… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Jen Linkova
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Hannes Tschofenig
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Theresa Enghardt
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … STARK, BARBARA H
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Niels ten Oever
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Marc Petit-Huguenin
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Lars Eggert
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Colin Perkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bill Woodcock
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Martin Thomson
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… John Wroclawski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Bron Gondwana
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Fernando Gont
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Dan Harkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and Inclusiveness in … Keith Moore
- Re: [Gendispatch] Academia (Re: Diversity and Inc… Wes Hardaker