Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts are IETF stakeholders
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> Fri, 23 June 2023 21:19 UTC
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts are IETF stakeholders
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On 24-Jun-23 01:15, Mallory Knodel wrote: > On 6/23/23 2:49 AM, Christian Huitema wrote: > >>> On 23.06.23 03:46, Eric Rescorla wrote: >>>> That sentence was badly written. What I was trying to say was that I didn't >>>> think it would work to have a situation where civil society and government >>>> negotiate externally and then come and say "PEPIs think X" >> >> Actually, it is not clear that different governments have the same policy priorities. Discussions in the European Union, for example, show a wide variety of positions. There might even be this wide variety of positions between branches of the same government, or between the executive and the legislative branches. > > Thank you for making this point, Christian. > > Furthermore reps from governments including the UK and the US have consistently engaged in the IETF and it seems that intra-agency knowledge sharing would go a long way to help newcomers from policy offices build capacity to engage, rather than asking the IETF community to take that on. Not only do governmental positions vary widely between countries, they are also vary widely within countries as governments change. They do not represent civil society anyway, just the currently successful political tendency. And since the Internet is global in scope and technology, national policy considerations are only part of the story. I can't see any reason we'd want to give national policy any more weight than international agency policy or for that matter input from civil society. As we know from the cryptography and surveillance wars, it is not uncommon for political positions to be *intrinsically* at odds with the engineering point of view. While I agree that we must remain open to input from all comers, we are an engineering organization and I really doubt that we can institutionalize non-engineering input, especially when it will be fragmented and inconsistent. There are reasons why the IETF decided many years ago to leave policy matters mainly to ISOC. We never really wrote that down, but the IAB charter says: (e) ISOC Liaison The IAB acts as a source of advice and guidance to the Board of Trustees and Officers of the Internet Society concerning technical, architectural, procedural, and (where appropriate) policy matters pertaining to the Internet and its enabling technologies. If necessary the IAB may convene panels of knowledgeable people, hold hearings, and otherwise pursue the investigation of specific questions or topics presented to it by the Internet Society. So, let anyone who wants to send their engineers to the IETF. And let the IAB and/or ISOC manage formal relationships when needed. Oh look, that's what we do already. Brian
- [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts are I… Stacie Hoffmann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Joel Halpern
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Stacie Hoffmann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… John Levine
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Stephen Farrell
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Livingood, Jason
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Bob Hinden
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Adrian Farrel
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… John R Levine
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Martin Thomson
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Eric Rescorla
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Christian Huitema
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Colin Perkins
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Jay Daley
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Eric Rescorla
- [Gendispatch] savage beasts at IETF meetings Jim Reid
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Mallory Knodel
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… John Levine
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Stacie Hoffmann
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… John Levine
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Andrew Alston
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Andrew Alston
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Salz, Rich
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Andrew Alston
- [Gendispatch] Diversity and the IETF Andrew Campling
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Vittorio Bertola
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Tony Rutkowski
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Rob Sayre
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Phillip Hallam-Baker
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Mallory Knodel
- Re: [Gendispatch] Diversity and the IETF Brian E Carpenter
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Eliot Lear
- Re: [Gendispatch] Updated draft: Policy experts a… Stacie Hoffmann