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From: David Schinazi <dschinazi.ietf@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2025 20:42:32 -0700
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 <CAPDSy+7EADeSVb3DCKROhE8BTnPLHbMbqvWrw059c3E9Rv+96Q@mail.gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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CC: "Salz, Rich" <rsalz@akamai.com>, Eric Rescorla <ekr@rtfm.com>,
 GENDISPATCH List <gendispatch@ietf.org>
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 <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/gendispatch/FSi-rBO8svifxLPne3QhtEBe-9Q>

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I strongly agree with this draft. The theory that we "need" manual minutes
no longer matches reality in the year 2025. As a working group chair, I've
stopped reviewing manual minutes - I just click the "import from etherpad"
button and click "submit". No one ever reads them, so no one has ever
complained. Manual minutes were important in the past, back when they were
the only record. They were still important when all we had was an MP3 file.
But now that we have a YouTube video record with an automatic transcription
that you can search through and find the precise second of the video that
matches, manual minutes are pointless. As a WG participant, I've entirely
stopped looking through the human-made minutes, I exclusively search
through the automated video transcript at this point. And if I need to see
the decisions that were made, I look at the mailing list, because that's
where all the decisions need to be confirmed anyway.

Make it so.
David

PS: +1 to the Yes, Minister reference. Please make sure that it makes it
into the RFC series.

On Tue, Oct 7, 2025 at 7:22=E2=80=AFPM Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's actually RFC 2026 that requires "complete and accurate minutes of
> meetings." Then 2418 is more specific: "These minutes should include the
> agenda for the session, an account of the discussion including any
> decisions made, and a list of attendees."
>
> I don't think we need any more specific text than that in 2026bis and
> 2418bis, but I agree with Joel et al that this *is* what we need. A fully
> automated transcript would be a very good start, however.
>
> Regards/Ng=C4=81 mihi
>     Brian Carpenter
>
> On 08-Oct-25 04:43, Salz, Rich wrote:
> > Could this become part of the discussion of 2418bis happening in the
> PROCON WG? I guess GENDISPATCH could decide that, but do we need to wait?
> >
> > The draft doesn=E2=80=99t explicitly address the key part of the =E2=80=
=9CYes, Minister=E2=80=9D
> issue, which is that any minutes should require as a minimum, recording o=
f
> decisions and action items. If that were made official policy or BCP, the=
n
> many of the objections would probably be mitigated.
> >
> --
> Gendispatch mailing list -- gendispatch@ietf.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to gendispatch-leave@ietf.org
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<div dir=3D"ltr">I strongly agree with this draft. The theory that we &quot=
;need&quot; manual minutes no longer matches reality in the year 2025. As a=
 working group chair, I&#39;ve stopped reviewing manual minutes - I just cl=
ick the &quot;import from etherpad&quot; button and click &quot;submit&quot=
;. No one ever reads them, so no one has ever complained. Manual minutes we=
re important in the past, back when they were the only record. They were st=
ill important when all we had was an MP3 file. But now that we have a YouTu=
be video record with an automatic transcription that you can search through=
 and find the precise second of the video that matches, manual minutes are =
pointless. As a WG participant, I&#39;ve entirely stopped looking through t=
he human-made minutes, I exclusively search through the automated video tra=
nscript at this point. And if I need to see the decisions that were made, I=
 look at the mailing list, because that&#39;s where all the decisions need=
=C2=A0to be confirmed anyway.<div><div><br></div><div>Make it so.</div><div=
>David</div><div><br></div><div>PS:=C2=A0+1 to the Yes, Minister reference.=
 Please make sure that it makes it into the RFC series.</div></div></div><b=
r><div class=3D"gmail_quote gmail_quote_container"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=
=3D"gmail_attr">On Tue, Oct 7, 2025 at 7:22=E2=80=AFPM Brian E Carpenter &l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.co=
m</a>&gt; wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin=
:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"=
>It&#39;s actually RFC 2026 that requires &quot;complete and accurate minut=
es of meetings.&quot; Then 2418 is more specific: &quot;These minutes shoul=
d include the agenda for the session, an account of the discussion includin=
g any decisions made, and a list of attendees.&quot;<br>
<br>
I don&#39;t think we need any more specific text than that in 2026bis and 2=
418bis, but I agree with Joel et al that this *is* what we need. A fully au=
tomated transcript would be a very good start, however.<br>
<br>
Regards/Ng=C4=81 mihi<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Brian Carpenter<br>
<br>
On 08-Oct-25 04:43, Salz, Rich wrote:<br>
&gt; Could this become part of the discussion of 2418bis happening in the P=
ROCON WG? I guess GENDISPATCH could decide that, but do we need to wait?<br=
>
&gt; <br>
&gt; The draft doesn=E2=80=99t explicitly address the key part of the =E2=
=80=9CYes, Minister=E2=80=9D issue, which is that any minutes should requir=
e as a minimum, recording of decisions and action items. If that were made =
official policy or BCP, then many of the objections would probably be mitig=
ated.<br>
&gt; <br>
-- <br>
Gendispatch mailing list -- <a href=3D"mailto:gendispatch@ietf.org" target=
=3D"_blank">gendispatch@ietf.org</a><br>
To unsubscribe send an email to <a href=3D"mailto:gendispatch-leave@ietf.or=
g" target=3D"_blank">gendispatch-leave@ietf.org</a><br>
</blockquote></div>

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